Beyond the Plate: The Psychology of Performance Nutrition

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Welcome back to Cell to Systems. In this episode, we are joined by special guest Robin Steagall, who is a registered dietitian working with high-performance athletes and high-performance adults on optimization. She's also the founder of Body Science RD private practice.

"We're located in Atlanta, and you work on optimization with people who sometimes try to overoptimize and then wind up underoptimizing."

"So we try to help folks use nutrition and training to achieve their goals. And sometimes 'less is more' is kind of where I start in terms of the concept around optimization. So yep."

"So, where does that start? How does that start when you have somebody, let's say you're onboarding someone brand new? Where does it all start?"

"So, where I'm positioned in terms of being a private practice dietitian, by the time a patient or a client gets to me, they literally have tried everything else on their own. They've gone online, they've used chatbots, they've whatever. So, by the time they come to me, really what I've discovered is that they just are like, 'Tell me what to do.' You know, they just, help me. I've tried everything and something's off. And the 'off' is what we're trying to fix. We're trying to define, and we're trying to get really, really prescriptive around it sometimes."

"For example, someone will come in and they'll say, if it's an athlete, for example—my particular area of passion, I love strength and performance athletes. I just have a soft spot for that area. I love it. And so these athletes will come in and they're getting ready for a competition. And generally speaking, the issue that's bringing them in is their recovery is off or they're not hitting their numbers. Or sometimes it's something like, 'My GI is off, like my stomach hurts and I can't finish my training.' And so we start there and we start trying to figure out, okay, well, let's look at the whole picture."

"And so as a dietitian, it's more than just the foods. It's more than just the supplements. It's also kind of what is your motivation, your timing, your amounts, how focused we are, how does it integrate with your training, your recovery, those kinds of things. So, we try to start to paint a picture around that person so that they can begin to both have solutions to the problem and achieve their goal, but also ultimately I'm wanting them to have something that's sustainable. They can walk away and it's not just like a finish line mentality where they made competition or they hit their record or whatever. They're able to have skills and they have changed somehow the way they're interacting with their self-care around nutrition and recovery."

"Interesting. So, I imagine that evolves over time also as you work with someone. It's not a static thing. They're sort of hitting new benchmarks and then finding new ways to move forward. Curious from the group how that plays in. Christy, I know you have Veronica with you. And as you see patients as a provider, I wonder how that plays in for you and your practice."

"Yeah, I mean, Veronica, she's also a registered dietitian and, I mean, phenomenal. I think that's when we work with patients together, that is when we get our best results. Because when we talk about strength training and performance, you know, for myself, we have to zoom out because from a longevity standpoint, it's not about how hard we push, like Robin was saying, it's about how well your system can adapt, recover, and sustain output over time. And like at the cellular level, strength training is a stressor, and that's what we want it to be, right? And fueling and recovery determine whether that stressor becomes adaptation or a breakdown."

"And then you know, I think that's when having a registered dietitian nutritionist on board can be phenomenal. Because I mean, as we all know, strength training is one of the most powerful tools as far as longevity we have, and it improves, you know, the insulin sensitivity, preserves lean muscle mass, supports the mitochondria, and drives the hormone health. But more training is not better training. And I agree, like the under-fueling is, I think, one of the most overlooked disruptors as far as long-term health."

"The body doesn't—how I describe it to patients—like the body doesn't interpret under-fueling as leaning out. It sees it as a threat, and that's also when you start getting, you know, the mitochondrial breakdown, the dysfunction from a thyroid perspective. And you see it with the patients who are training consistently but are plateauing or even regressing because the body just simply doesn't have the resources to adapt because it's been in this under-fueling state for way too long."

"And then, you know, one of my kind of passions, and especially just going through Dr. Freeze's training or having my other provider go through it, is the most overlooked piece in performance, I think, is the nervous system, in my opinion. You know, you have these high-performing athletes with high stress, high output, always pushing. But it doesn't matter how perfect your nutrition is. If you're not in a state that supports repair and digestive and muscle health, you can't out-train a dysregulated nervous system."

"Well, and you also can't out-train or run away from a bad diet or poor recovery. And they all work. I think that's the thing that working with Suzanne is really so great. To your point, Christy, is the fact that it's the best of both worlds. So you have a provider that's working on the hormone systems and you're looking at thyroid function and that aspect of physiology. I will say oftentimes as a dietitian who's also in the weight room, who's also in and around these athletes, I can start to spot things and patterns that look like under-nutrition before it ever hits the labs or it ever shows up even subclinically."

"You can just see changes in mood or shifts in interaction, and having the time and the ability as a provider to have that much time with my patients—like that's the other thing that's really different here. Because oftentimes in traditional clinical nutrition, it's these one-off 15-minute grind education sessions, and you don't have the time to really unfold and really learn and know the person who's sitting across from you. And I think that is also the biggest difference maker in providing care at this level for high-performing individuals for sure."

"Do you guys in your practice ever do—you know, I've seen other practices that will actually like go into the grocery store with their clients to help guide their food choices and plan out and map their meals throughout the week."

"I mean, I will when I say I get in the trenches with these people. So I don't take a lot of patients, to be honest. I mean, I've been doing this for a long, long time. I have the ability to really make sure that when I'm sitting down in front of someone, this is someone that I will walk in through the trenches with, like we're going to do this thing, right? Yeah, I have set up personal chefs for people. I have called the chefs. I mean, we have gone through like—I have gone to gas stations that might be potentially on the route that their tour bus is going to take and photographed what you get out of the gas station, right? Like, I mean to that level of information and support."

"Because one of the things that compromises performance nutrition is decision fatigue, right? Like they're already maxed out. They've got—they're trying to hit home runs in all these other areas. And that's where, like I said, they come in front of me, they're like, 'Just tell me what to do.' And initially at that treatment spot or that initial interaction and trying to get them to the goal, we're solving a problem, right? Like we're giving them the solution."

"Once they start to feel better, they're starting to make that connection between the importance, then we are able to start shifting over into what I'm ultimately trying to get them to, which is mastery around their nutrition and how they're interacting with their foods and their recovery."

"It's interesting to talk about, you know, performance and athletes, and I'm just trying to make connections as to what I see in patients that maybe aren't like the highest performers. Because they get into a position where they have this like positive reinforcement from bad decisions they've made. So they initially have poor metabolism, very overweight, and so they're under-nourished, but that's worked for them because now they lose a lot of weight, and then they hit these really bad plateaus."

"And some people have had some success being on very low-calorie diets, ketogenic diets, where they just improve their body composition and their biomarkers improve. And so they get this positive reinforcement. But what happens is now they have a different body composition, they have different caloric needs, and they did not switch that plan. And it's really hard to tell somebody that, 'Hey, I know that worked for you, but now fueling and now eating is going to be what takes you to the next level, to the next phase of your optimization.'"

"And I ran into that myself because, you know, I was very overweight at one point and I knew what worked for me. And I was like, 'Hey, I have a system. This is what I do. I don't eat any carbs. I don't eat anything and I just work out really hard.' But I just got to a point where I realized that that was causing more problems. I went through years of not realizing that there was another level to get to if I could just fuel correctly. And I see that happen in a lot of patients. So I love the way that you can learn from high-performance athletes, but even bring that to some of our sicker patients."

"I think that's a really good point. The on-ramp for a lot of under-fueling is often initially a body composition change. Like, I want to lean out. I want to, you know, I'm off competition cycle. I want to increase my muscle and I want to drop some body fat. And that's their on-ramp. And so it starts out in this like really virtuous cycle, right? Where we are creating a calorie deficit and we're really dialed in in terms of focusing on, you know, like food logging and all the things, the quote 'eating clean.' It's just like really intentional eating and hitting your numbers really, really consistently."

"If we don't advance beyond and constantly reassess, you know, what is it we're actually trying to achieve? When is optimal? When do we arrive at optimal? Well, optimal is a moving target, right? And so that's where we're hoping to get some skill development around mastery really for the individual to listen to their bodies, not necessarily rely so heavily on just the external markers of how you're doing."

"You know, I have clients that wear like the—sorry, the rings, like the, you know, heart rate variability and they're looking at recovery apps, and they have all of this technology, these wearables, and they're relying on those external data points to tell them how they're doing. And that's the only—it's like they're not actually checking in like, 'How you doing in there? Like, really, how are you doing in your own body?' And they become, you know, it's almost like disconnected. And so that's where I think it's a slippery slope in terms of—you can start to get yourself into a cage around how you're fueling because you're really chasing optimization on these external markers and maybe skipping some of how you're feeling in your own body, and you know, like how your mood is, the other things that are a little bit less hard to track on an app."

"Yeah, I was the one that had, you know, the glucose monitor, the Oura ring, the watch—like two different watches, two different apps going at the same time to tell me which one I was burning calories on. And recently, and it wasn't by decision, it was, I think I told you guys before, my Oura ring broke and I just haven't got another one. And I just, you know, Frank got me addicted to watches recently. And so I haven't been wearing my Apple Watch, and I feel more in tune with my body now than I have in the last three or four years."

"And I don't know what my glucose is. I don't know what my sleep score was. I just know, hey, like, how did I fuel myself yesterday? Like, how am I going to feel in the gym today? Um, yeah, you know what? I'm not going to work out this morning, or maybe I'll get one in in the afternoon because I need an extra hour. And I feel better than I have in a long time. And not to say one's right or wrong, but I just got too far into it and I started letting it dictate, you know, how I feel or what I do without listening to myself."

"And that intersection that you're talking about, Leonard, of the two things, right? Where you have both the data, but also like a reflection or a check-in with—if you guys ever heard of the concept of like rate of perceived exertion versus wearing like a heart rate monitor, right? And so, you know, you have like, 'Well, am I in zone 2? Well, according to my heart rate monitor, I am.' But when I actually ask myself, 'How hard does this feel to me?' I might be at a three or a four based on the amount of sleep I've had that day or where I am in my cycle or these other variables that are not picked up just on that watch."

"And so mastery, when I talk about mastery for high-performing individuals or for anyone really, is the ability to integrate both things—like keep them in context and perspective. And that also requires that they start to build trust around their own agency and the ability to feed themselves, the ability to listen that the body is telling them things that they can trust. And then it helps them put that external data into some context."

"Robin, do you have your patients track calories?"

"I do, and it's very controversial in dietetics to do that. So, like I said, initially when a patient or—I hate to say client, these are clients, they're not patients, like these are my people—they come in and they have really specific goals and they say, you know, they have a problem and we're going to fix it. That is an initial treatment or therapeutic intervention, and it's really about them learning and readjusting to what their needs are like physiologically, nutritionally around timing, how their bodies change and respond to different macro levels and things like that."

"And the best piece of information or the best data you can collect on yourself is a symptom tracker, right? So, 'This is what I'm eating. This is how I feel when I eat it. This is what my output is.' And you're putting—so I try to make sure that it's not a punishment. This is really about you getting the best possible data so that you are developing a deep-level understanding of what you need, and this is how we get to mastery. So a short intervention of calorie tracking, but it's not just calories; we look at protein, we look at fat, we look at fiber, we look at sodium, we look at all the things. I love it when they use an app to do that, but if that's not their on-ramp, just even pen-and-papering it. And with that data, we begin to help them form new and different relationships around their self-care and their timing and things like that."

"So, you find the app is actually the way to track it is the best way to see it because you can really start to see the metrics over time."

"You know what I love about an app is that the ones that we're using, they let me—I get to watch them log, and so you have almost like this built-in accountability system. So, you know, it's like the concept like you won't show up for yourself, but if you have an accountability partner, then you'll do the thing because you know someone's watching. And I love that part of an app where I can in real time go back and see, you know, like if they text me and they're like, 'Yeah, my—I was off today in my numbers or whatever,' I can be like, 'Well, let's go take a look. Let's see what's been going on.'"

"And we can really start to see patterns or notice like, 'Yeah, you know what? The past few days you've been really, really under in your carbs, that could definitely...' and so that's what I love about an app."

"You know what's crazy about this listening to you guys is it's the psychology around food and nutrition that's more important than anything else. It's almost like we talk about all those things—I mean, I do have a problem with food, I love food, I really do. So, you know, and it's one of those things where it's almost like we talk about apps, we talk about those protocols, talk about all those things, but I think it's like 99.5% all psychology around how to kind of bring nutrition into your life really. And it's interesting, I can't wait to talk to Robin about that a little bit deeper and see how she adds, or if you do add psychology into your conversation with your customers."

"Because you know, it's almost like, for me, the goal of performance nutrition should never be like a protocol. The protocol is a tool. So the apps, Oura ring—it's a tool, right? And the goal is a person who fuels their training effectively, recovers completely, maintaining their hormonal balance, and has a relationship with food that adds to their lives rather than organizing it, in a sense, right? And I'm just curious to see if you do add a component of psychology with that because I think people change."

"The nutrition that a 25-year-old that's a powerlifter, that really wants to get fit, is using compared to a 35-year-old male that's trying to retain pain, compared to a 45-year-old guy that wants to run a marathon, to a perimenopausal/menopausal lady that's—it's just all different. The approach is so different about how they're thinking about food. So, yeah, just curious to see how you bring psychology in there."

"It's such an interesting question that you're asking. I'm a preceptor for dietetic students at the dietetic programs at Emory and Georgia State down here, and part of their rotation is to come and learn competency around private practice. So I have a dietetic intern with me now, and she's able to sit in and observe these interactions with my clients. And at the end of the one today, she looked at me and she said, 'Oh my god, Robin, that's not education. That's counseling.' And I was like, 'You're absolutely right.' Because the beliefs and thoughts we have around how we feed ourselves, how we move our bodies, what we allow ourselves to do in terms of rest and recovery is deeply anchored in a lot of that early programming that we've experienced as children."

"The information that we've observed, the behaviors we've observed, we pick up a lot of self-care—I call them like dust bunnies almost—as we go through life that set for us before we even realize it, rules and guidelines around, 'Well, this is what it means to be healthy. This is what healthy eating looks like. This is what healthy foods are,' and it's sometimes the work is literally helping that individual unpack some of these sort of unintentional food beliefs and concepts they have."

"Particularly for women, there's a unique challenge I find in women of my age group where we were almost taught that the less space you occupy, the higher your value on the planet, right? So it is literally a less-is-more mentality. So getting on a scale and seeing a number that does not meet what that sort of programming early in your life around your value—that can undo weeks and weeks and weeks of really solid, intentional self-care, and they don't even understand where their motivation went or why they've given up, right? Like, 'What happened?' And it's helping them start to make the connection between—I call them the monkeys in their heads—and these are these unintentional beliefs and thoughts about how they will care for themselves or what they'll allow themselves to do and what is safe and not safe around nutrition and things like that. So, there's a huge psychological component to that."

"As a little girl growing up—and you know, I grew up in like the '70s and '80s, I'm going to definitely date myself—so growing up, part of the norm is an era of like attending meetings where women would step on a scale and they would record your weight and it was like weight loss, weight loss, way less, way less, way less. The reason I personally have shifted my emphasis away from weight management and into sports and performance is because ultimately, at the end of all of that, the less of us, what are we really trying to achieve? We're trying to be healthier and live longer and be stronger and have more enjoyment, hopefully, living in our bodies. And it's not about weight management."

"Whatever we're doing, we're actually trying to optimize performance, athlete or not. We're trying to have these homes that we occupy physically keep up with our desire to go and grow and explore. And so psychology is the thing that underpins it. And I had the benefit of kind of being raised feral, right? Like in not necessarily the most emotionally supportive environment and having to learn and acquire tools as I went along, both as an athlete but just as a human and a woman walking around on the planet. And so I try very, very hard to give time and space and privacy for my clients so that we can do some of that work. If I ever get an indication, however, that we're at another level of complex trauma or a higher level of not just disordered eating, but we're talking about eating disorders, then I always refer out; we definitely get folks into that team-based care environment."

"Do you work with kids?"

"Kids are so tough. I will, but no. It's challenging because children are not independent eaters. So children are eating within a family, and there are a lot of additional family dynamics that come along with it. So you're not just dealing with that individual, even if you're talking about an adolescent and teen or a 20-year-old, they're not necessarily independent in making their own decisions. And so you're really trying to deal with interactions between siblings and parents and extended family, and it can get really, really complex, right? And so I think that having the expertise and the deep training around those additional relationships is why people specialize in pediatrics. You know, but I will take sports and parents and kids for sure, but I'm very, very careful around whether we are crossing a line into some of these more complex food and feeding issues."

"It's just such a challenging area. I mean, kids these days grow up exposed to all of the stuff that's absolutely terrible for them. But of course, it tastes so good. And we know that scientists are working hard behind the curtain to make these foods more addictive and more appealing, how can we bypass their appetite suppression and all of those things. I find that to be one of the most challenging aspects of being a parent is—I know the science behind why this is healthy and why this is not, but then sort of relaying that to my children and helping them to understand that the choices you're going to make now are actually going to influence how you feel tomorrow and how you're able to do your homework and perform in school and so forth."

"And so, you know, it's the type of thing that I think patients or clients of yours or anybody who is working with a registered dietitian, if they've got kids of their own, how can you talk to your kids about better choices and fueling for purpose and for energy, and really trying to avoid some of the pitfalls of unhealthy nutrition?"

"So, to that point, Craig, I have one story in particular that really stands out for me, and it's kind of like this is the minefield around kids and nutrition. So, up in this area, I'm in the north metro area, and we're at a fancy grocery store—I'm not going to name it, but it's a fancy grocery store where all the healthy things are. This is where all the perfect food lives, 'perfect' in air quotes. So, I'm at the salad bar or the hot foods bar and I am literally waiting for a client to show up because we're going to do a grocery store tour. So, I'm standing in that area and that's where we're going to meet."

"And I see this interaction between a mother and her daughter. Her daughter could not have been more than 5 years old. And the little girl is with her mom and they're going to get food, and the little girl has her plate and she goes to the salad bar and she gets apple slices—Granny Smith apple slices. And the mother said to this 5-year-old, 'No, no, sweetheart. There's too much sugar in that.' And I tell you, it took everything in my body to just take that in as information and not try to intervene."

"But that is what I'm talking about when we want both for our children. We want them to both live healthy and we also want them to have confidence around their ability to feed themselves, but at the same time, we are also trying not to completely terrify them about the food environment that they're going to encounter because it's really different in the United States, right? The most powerful thing we can do as parents—because I have two boys—is realize they may not listen to me, but they watch me. They watch me how I eat. They watch me make a meal. They watch me cook or not cook and order on DoorDash, right? So they're learning in how we're doing."

"The other thing is you don't grow up learning to like broccoli. I mean, maybe some people do, but that is something that you only come to because you try it over and over again and it's part of your norms. And so what a healthy meal is—that's our job as parents, in my perspective, to teach them what healthy eating is. And it's also my job as a parent to let them have hot dogs, right? Both. Because if you get too restrictive again, then it becomes about a power struggle and secretive eating and shame, and then off we go into that rabbit hole of disordered eating."

"Our kids, especially our teens, are getting so much pressure around aesthetics, like the externals. And I'm getting more and more late teen and 20-year-old women where we are really, really flirting with eating disorders. And it's all coming from the notion of 'looksmaxing' and not just looksmaxing, but like eating clean, eating healthy. And they're so good at eating clean and eating healthy that literally their energy availability is too low and they cannot fuel their activities, and it's all masked in this socially acceptable package. They're lean, they're beautiful, they're botoxed, and they're 20, and at the same time they feel worried when they're eating a Granny Smith apple because there's too much sugar, you know? And it's like, wow."

"What you're seeing is they're more irritable, they have more brain fog, they've lost motivation, they're not dating, and it's all of these other more subtle signs, but ultimately it's masked in this really well-intentioned idea. You've got to be careful how you feed yourself in the United States because you can have the best and the absolute worst, nutritionally. And so, as parents, we have the responsibility to show what a healthy meal is and also demonstrate that food is not just nutrients; it's also pleasure and culture and tradition, and we need all of that because we have senses in our body to enjoy what we're eating."

"Giving kids confidence and enjoyment and knowing the concept of balance—and nobody's perfect. I mean, do you think my kids listen to me? I'm a dietitian, are you kidding me? Oftentimes they're like, 'Who invited her?' Like, that's what they say if it's at a dinner restaurant or whatever. And I have to try really, really hard to just, again, trust in the process, know that they're observing. They may not... so, but you're right, challenging is not even the word. And then if you have children that are into athletics and they're on travel teams, and there's even, with the NIL, another level of pressure that's coming in younger and younger—they're still growing and developing. I mean, it's a lot. So, yeah."

"One of the things that I've found to be pretty cool, just for myself but also within my friends group and for colleagues and friends of ours that have kids that are maybe in their mid-to-late teens and have some exposure to language and stuff like that, is actually looking at some of the TV shows that are out there, maybe on Netflix. Like, there's this one guy, Matty Matheson, who's a world-renowned chef; he owns several different restaurants. And the way he presents his food preparation and his cooking makes it so enticing and look so beautiful and look like such a spiritual and holistic process that you can't help but feel as though you want to go out the next day and find the right groceries, find the right ingredients, and put together this delicious meal for yourself and your family."

"Using media like that instead of just mindless brain rot and actually looking at a cooking show—I mean, cooking shows have been around forever, right? And I guess there's a good reason because they can be so motivating in that sense."

"You know, one of the things that I was really excited to see is last year, Georgia State University took a group of dietetic interns—they're getting ready to become dietitians—took them to Italy, took them to Florence. It's like a food cultural exchange, but really it was about showing these students how in Italy, in the public health system, they integrate the Mediterranean diet. We went into an elementary school that has a main kitchen, and they are making from-scratch meatballs from animals that were literally on the farm like 2 miles away. We're talking local, we're talking fresh, talking from scratch."

"The emphasis and importance are not just on the composition of the meal in terms of protein, carbs, and fat, but the quality of the ingredients, and also about allowing these school children when they sit down to eat—they have a minimum of an hour to have a meal at school, right? I mean, they believe that learning about food and how to fuel yourself and what real food tastes like is actually part of your education. That's part of their public education system."

"I think there was a study published, and I can't remember the date, but it was looking at countries and their perceptions and beliefs around food. The UK, the United States, and I think Australia, we have the lowest nutrition quality and the lowest levels of enjoyment in what we eat. And then you look at other countries like Peru—and I'll have to find the study, I can share it—and Italy, and they have the highest nutrition quality and the highest enjoyment in what they eat. It's because their relationship around food is so different; they make time for it, they're very intentional in it, and they're using ingredients that are fresh and local and they smell like strawberries and not just look like strawberries, right? And so, yeah, we have so many unique challenges in our country in terms of sort of educating and helping people feed themselves in ways that feel sustainable and safe and are actually helping them achieve their goals. So, yeah, you're absolutely spot on, Craig. Like, how do you teach someone? It's a challenge. I mean, we have a lot of opportunity, though."

"So, Robin, I think there's a misalignment between what you just said there and what's going on in the longevity world for us right now. Meaning that this desire to enjoy food and enjoy good quality ingredients is misaligned with what's going on out there with performance and longevity in this country, right? Because it's supposed to be enjoyable, balanced, like you just talked about, right? And what's happening is it becomes extremely rigid around food choices here. It's creating anxiety when you have to talk about food, definitely social withdrawal. You know, people withdraw from social events because they don't want to go and attend because of the food they're going to be serving. So you have this identity crisis with food here, and it's supposed to be the inverse."

"It's totally misaligned, you know, and I'm so glad that you talked about that because you're right. Italians, people in Spain—eating is a social event, you know, and there's a lot of it, and it's actually good for you, right? And it shouldn't be misaligned with, 'No, you're not supposed to be eating this or eating that,' right? And I think that's what we need to really kind of make sure that people understand when it comes to being optimal and wanting to live a healthy life—it's just all about making the right choices, making sure it's balanced, and going to the source of where it's coming from."

"Some of it is also, again, time and having the time. When you're working with high-performance folks or not—I mean just everybody—we're all so busy. I don't know for where y'all are, but I mean like I have clients that their commute every single day is 90 minutes. That is 3 hours a day that they are in the car, and that's draining energetically even though they're not spending a... it's just so stressful. And so by the time they get home, their decision-making, their brain's ability to be like, 'Let's go peel some vegetables,' is very, very low, and it makes it really, really hard. And then they get shame around the fact that, 'Well, I had to get some frozen organic vegetables and I microwaved them,' right? Now they're like, 'Oh, that's not good enough,' you know? And so then what ends up happening ultimately, inadvertently, is sometimes they just quit, right? It's like the all-or-nothing, and that's that rigidity we're talking about."

"And so I think one of the things that we're working on is that balance. Just because—you know, we've got the information coming in from our wearables, but then also the ability to put it in context with how am I actually feeling, and trying to give folks the tools and the ability to know how to... it's like always like that scale. It's like good, better, best, right? Good, better, best. And how do we get people just thinking about it in terms of 'perfect' is never the goal? We're trying to make some progress, and we're going to do the best we can given the situation of the day."

"Because when people feel as if this is an impossible mission, then they're going to look for shortcuts and hacks and, 'Just give it to me in a pill because I don't have time for this.' And so I think what we're trying to do is maybe change some of the messaging and the communication around it because I do believe you can have both. Some days you have time for that big, wonderful meal that you've made and you grew the tomatoes on the patio or whatever. And some days, really, I mean, you're picking up something from DoorDash or at a Mediterranean restaurant, and both fit. And I think when you can help people figure out how to put it into their own lives, that's where we really start to see what I call the optimal performance metric."

"For me, I have clients that leave me and they come back to me in 5 years and they're like, 'Okay, Robin, now I'm going to work on this.' They feel when they leave they have confidence to navigate because we have a really fraught food system and food environment. I want people to feel instead of discouraged or neurotic or nervous—I want people to start to feel like they can trust themselves and learn and grow. It's like a progress, like a growth mindset, right? Like we're trying to get them to think outside of just some of the shortcuts and the data and the perfection—thinking out of rigid and into some flexibility and small, progressive, consistent change."

"I love what you guys have been talking about and throwing it back to what Frank said about the psychology of it all because I know that my relationship with food has always been complex. Like Frank, I love food, you know? Like, I have the tendency to be a binge eater, and on a day where I am weak and I give in to those cravings and whatnot, it is like a catastrophic mental shift that happens because I'm like, 'Oh my god, you know, I really got to make up for this tomorrow.' Or, 'You know, I've got to go get on the Peloton tonight,' or I've got to do this, that, or the other thing. And it's just so remarkable how, as we've all discussed, how our relationship with food here is so different than other countries. And it can be so unfortunately devastating to someone's mental state."

"I like what you mentioned, Robin, about really trying to encourage and empower people. And it's remarkable because when you see somebody who's reached that optimal state of performance and they're making the right decisions, it's a night-and-day difference between that person and how they present themselves and how they appear confident versus somebody who, maybe they're trying really hard but they're just not there yet, or maybe they know that they're not making adequate nutritional decisions for themselves. I mean, these are two completely different people in the way that they're going to present out in public, and it's so wonderful to see those people that are really achieving a lot of success, and it's great to be able to be in a position where you can help the people that are not yet there. So, awesome work that you're doing."

"Thank you. I would also say, for us, one of the things I try to ask my patients or my clients to do is to just start to take all of those eating behaviors and those beliefs and just approach it with some curiosity. So, when you talk about those moments where it's like, 'Man, I don't understand... like, I just had an incident with tortilla chips the other night. I like ate the whole bag, right?' And there's a ton of shame around it because we get very black-and-white around it, like that was good or that was bad, right? Or actually, you just feel terrible when you wake up the next day because you ate a whole bag of chips."

"Well, here's the thing: those chips were intentionally designed to get you to eat the whole bag, right? So, good job, guys. But the second thing is, okay, what led up to that? Like, what was happening in that day? How did I sleep the night before? Where was my stress level the night before? Was it one of those days where I was literally going, going, going and never actually ate? I'm now back-loading calories because I've actually been operating in a deficit all day long."

"And so what your body is trying to do honestly, Craig, is save you, protect you—protect you from either stress because you have been on cortisol all day long and just, you know, foot on the accelerator. It's trying to protect you from starvation, it's trying to protect you from low blood sugar, whatever. But then because the foods we're putting in our mouths are designed for us to just keep going, it's working. I want to take away the shame and the judgment around it. It's like a thing that happens. So now let's get curious about it."

"Oftentimes you start to—and this is where like food logging and paying attention, that's where you can start to find patterns and know, 'Hey, you know what, man? Like, I didn't sleep great the night before. I'd done a ton of cardio the day before. I didn't really refuel afterward. Some of my glycogen stores were low.' It kind of now starts to make sense, and now you start to get some additional ways of pausing and identifying when you're starting to head in that direction over again. And it's just some of the things that we try to think about and work with our patients on figuring out because everyone's had those experiences."

"Living in America, it's like we have so much abundance and we also have so little time and oftentimes so little connection or opportunity to really nourish ourselves. So food is the fill-in for that, and it's not necessarily the stuff that our body needs, but it's the thing that's going to give us the jolt or the dopamine or the whatever, right? So I just would say for us to like work on curiosity and meet those things with grace."

"Yeah. I think it's really interesting too as we move into this world where we talk a lot about GLP-1s and I wonder just from your perspective how much that has impacted the work that you do."

"I'm going to say that the GLP-1 class of medications is probably—this is the paradigm shift, right? Like, this is the moment where the seas change, and I am enjoying—when I'm not saying enjoying, but I think it's just really, really interesting. I was reading an article about consumption of flour in this country is way, way down. Well, most of the flour was used in highly processed foods, and when people are on GLP-1s, that food noise and some of that like sort of the addiction pathways around eating gets switched either off or really low, and so consumers are now demonstrating different behaviors and it's starting to affect the big food industry, right? Like they're like, 'Wait a minute, where'd everybody go?'"

"I think in many, many ways the GLP-1s are probably—it's like the chemotherapy for the terrible terminal cancer. Like, it is the magic bullet we've been hoping for. And sometimes it works too well. And it works so well that people's ability—their connection again intuitively and instinctively with real appetite, craving, and enjoyment of foods—like they just they don't enjoy food anymore. Like, they're really—it's like they're so completely numb to it. And so it's always that sort of like, 'Can we get to the lowest therapeutic dose?' because, again, sometimes it can be too effective."

"And you know, there's always, again, we're meeting external markers: you're losing weight and your body composition is improving, but oh, by the way, you're malnourished, okay? Like, you're iron deficient, your vitamin D is way off, your B vitamins, because you're not eating enough nutrient-dense food. So, I think when you're working with someone who's on these medications, it's supporting them and working with them to make sure that they are still very intentional in their food choices and food selections."

"And then for those individuals that are, again, we talk about maintenance and how is it affecting performance, are they able to do the things they want? Because there's athletes that are using them now, right? And so, it's really, really hard to eat like the right energy intake while on some of these medications at effective doses because it's like they just can't, and they even stop hydrating. That was the other thing that's really surprising; I think the thirst mechanisms get turned off. And sometimes it's hard enough to get them to drink enough when they're not on the medication, and that's another challenge. So, it just adds another—it's an amazing tool and it's also something you have to really change your awareness and your intentionality around the food choices that you are making when you're on those medications."

"Robin, another thing that we're obsessed with in this longevity field is protein and protein intake and how much protein to take."

"Love protein."

"You know, I keep on going back and forth with the way that I feel about it because all the doctors are recommending protein intake. That's not the magic thing—they're all saying the right words. But I think there is a big difference when it comes to recommendations as to how much protein. And my question to you is what are you seeing out there? Because I'm having instances where people can consume lower amounts of protein and maintain or increase muscle mass, where others need more protein. And there's a wide range of recommendations out there."

"And there's also recommendations that everybody's saying—that's really hard to get, like a gram of protein per pound of body weight is hard to do, especially with most of the patients being on GLP-1s. So we have these people that we need them to calorically restrict because they're overweight or they're like skinny-fat, but we also need them to increase their protein intake at the same time, and those are, to me, one of the more challenging ones. So what are your viewpoints on that? How do you decipher how much protein someone really needs, and is it different for different people? Because I've seen people maintain or increase muscle mass with a low—not nearly close to recommended—protein intake."

"Yep. So that's a really great question. And so protein is—I will just say in full disclosure, when I went to Italy, I traveled with satchels of whey protein powder. So I'm one of those weird Americans. So I think hitting your ideal protein amount, number one, it's very individualized. Number two, it is entirely dependent on where you are in your training and cycle, meaning how long have you been strength training? So the longer you've been strength training, actually the smarter your muscles are and the less protein you need—like they hang around and are more efficient."

"So, where protein is really, really important in making sure you have the quote 'right amount' of protein is when you're working with untrained or novice, like newbies—they're just initiating strength training and they are also at the same time working on creating a calorie deficit. So, the rules for protein: you need less protein when you have enough calories. And the fewer calories you eat below what your maintenance levels are, the higher percentage of your diet needs to come from protein."

"But I never—I always base protein requirements off of fat-free mass and not on body weight. And a lot of the recommendations for protein are just looking at, you know, grams per kilo or kilogram, right? I want to look at their fat-free mass. And so we always start with a body composition, and that's where we start to look at their protein requirements. And then I also want to look at factors such as their age, the intensity and volume of the training that they're doing, and then the kinds and quality of the proteins that they're eating, and sort of the variety and the diversity of the foods that they're consuming."

"So when you're working with a patient or with a client about adequate protein intake, the first thing you want to figure out is let's look at their body composition. If our goal for this person really is we want to lose fat, we want to maintain their lean muscle mass, then we're going to try and get them to eat close to at least one gram of protein per pound of fat-free mass. And that's because we're putting them intentionally in a hypocaloric environment. If you're working with someone who is maintaining their weight, then you can go lower in your protein recommendations for those patients. It is the calorie deficit that drives the need for the additional amino acids—so calorie deficit and their training volume are the big things that you're looking at."

"Absolutely."

"So this comes out of research. Back in 2018, I was at our annual conference and two researchers were presenting on how to prevent metabolic adaptation to weight loss. I don't know if you guys remember like the Biggest Loser studies where they would track those people after they'd been on the show, and they were seeing like this concept of the set point and boy, their bodies would just race back to or go higher than they started. And so, what were the mechanisms behind that? How could we prevent it as practitioners? Because up until that point, we had been working really hard at weight management, and maintenance was just awful. It's like that 95% failure rate for maintaining your weight loss."

"And so, Stephanie Maule and Todd Miller—they were researchers at George Washington University—they were presenting at the dietetic conference and they did this presentation on how to prevent or minimize this metabolic adaptation, which is when you lose weight, you lose—yes, you lose fat, but up to 30, sometimes 40% of what else you're losing is muscle. And so you're actually—that's that skinny-fat concept, right? Like your weight's coming down but you're kind of breaking down your own skeletal muscle mass, which sets you up then for a metabolic rate later on that is sort of very, very slow, and so every calorie you eat in maintenance is essentially stored and off we go back to like our set weight."

"Their research was showing that the greater the calorie deficit, if you institute intentional higher-intensity strength training, you're creating that like exercise stimulus, that stressor on the muscles, and creating those chemical signalings around repair and growth—so like that anabolic environment—and you put a greater percentage of calories towards protein, you can offset some of that muscle loss. And that's when I really totally shifted out of weight management and into sports performance, because what I realized is if it works for people that are untrained and trained and it's preserving their lean mass, this is optimizing human health across the board, right? Like, why aren't we more widely and broadly adopting these sort of recommendations in this lifestyle?"

"And so that's kind of like a long story about how I approach protein and why I am so protein-favorable or centric, but it's because most of the time when clients are working with me, it is because generally they're trying to like lean out. That tends to be the thing that's really powerful and initiating for them. Even like my powerlifters—they're above their weight class or they need to hit that weight target. And so we start with a slightly higher protein level and intake, but once we've got them at a maintenance calorie level—and we do that by measuring their resting metabolic rate, so we know what their calorie requirements are, then we look at activity factors and we do those kinds of things—then the percentage of calories coming from protein drops because you want to make sure that you're hitting like fat and carbs and all the other things for them too."

"How important is timing for you?"

"Timing is important in the following way. So there used to be a belief for a while that you had like this magic window within and around your training of like an hour to optimize muscle protein synthesis. And what we have discovered is actually the thing that matters the most at the end of the day is: have you hit your protein requirement for that period of time? Like, did you get your protein in that day? And if the answer to that is yes, then we're like, 'Okay, well, let's go from good, better, best.' Okay. So, good and better would be how are you dividing that protein out?"

"So, what we know is that after the ingestion of protein, you're in that sort of positive protein balance for about 3 to 4 hours. And so, we want to keep you kind of consistently, while you're awake, in that positive balance. So eating every 3 to 4 hours a dose that's around like 20 to 40 grams seems to be the optimal way to break up what a person's total protein requirement is for the day into like reasonable refueling breaks every 3 to 4 hours. So that's where that 20 to 40-gram range comes into play. So timing is important in that we're eating those meals steadily throughout the day. But if you're having one of those days where your tire blows and it's all going sideways and you just end up having two meals, you did your job. Like, okay, check. So it's really about—timing is important, but it is secondary in importance to: are you meeting your minimum total protein intake?"

"Yeah, so we don't have to obsess too much about post-workout protein intake, but I mean, I guess if you're doing it every three or four hours, it's going to happen within that timeframe anyway. I'm doing this for Jock because Jock is a chronic optimizer. I think he has a little anxiety over if he's getting the right amount of protein and leucine post-workout and the right thing. So, I'm trying to relieve his anxiety here."

"Thank you. Thank you, Leonard."

"It's like, 'Did I hit my leucine threshold within an hour of training?' Like, so here's one of the things I try to think about is the fact that most of my clients, when are they fitting in their strength training? It's usually before work, so we're looking at early in the morning; it could be at lunch break or sometimes it's after work. And getting them—so if am I asking them to... after work, so they finish their workout, it's now 5:00 p.m. So now I want them to eat protein and then go have a meal right after that. So if that doesn't necessarily make sense, if within 2 hours they're going to make it to a full meal with like 40 grams of protein, then they're within the threshold and they're great, providing that, yeah, they've been eating sort of steadily and consistently throughout the day."

"If you're an early morning exerciser, my best advice for those people is not so much about protein optimization. It's please, please, please God, put some fuel in your tank before you go and train. So when you're fasted training, what I have seen time and again just in my own experience is the quality of your training is compromised, especially if you're early training. So fasted exercise does not—it's not necessarily the optimal environment. So I'm trying to get them to eat—if they can eat anything, it's like 150 calories of some carbs or something, get something in your system. And then again afterwards, are they going to hit breakfast within like an hour or two?"

"It's really—here's the deal. It's like, so if we get really rule-bound around timing, then people start to get really rigid around like, 'Well, I missed that window of opportunity. I've blown it,' and instead of being flexible and like, 'I'm going to do better,' it's like, 'Oh man, I can't do this,' and they quit. Like, it doesn't feel sustainable. It's like, 'There's no way I can hit this within an hour.' Sometimes your intensity is so high after a workout, you really can't, and it's like, 'I don't feel like eating right now. I need my body to cool off.' So I would tell people to feel less pressure and stress around that timing window. It's really about consistently getting in that like dose a couple of times a day or three to four times a day."

"So as long as you get to that protein donut within some reasonable amount of time. I tried a protein donut for the first time. It was... is that a thing? Is that real? Is it a protein donut?"

"Is it really protein Eggos? Now you got..."

"I think they're good."

"Are you teasing?"

"I don't get out."

"Get a protein Eggo."

"Yeah, my daughter, she's 10, and we always talk about protein and sugar. And she came back from the store and she was so excited because she had found a donut that had protein in it, and she was so excited to show me. So I didn't break it to her, but I let her taste it. She realized how disgusting it was, though."

"How about these like protein concoctions that they now have at, you know, Starbucks and Dunkin' Donuts with the cold foam protein? I don't know what to believe anymore. I really like those David protein bars. They were really good and it was a lot of protein, and then the next thing you know, I don't know who to believe. They have like fake fat in there that's really fat, but it's not fat. It's actually a lot of calories... it's not a lot of calories. I don't even know what to believe anymore."

"That was actually a topic of conversation at Calm, back and forth. We were like, 'Ah, what's up with these David bars?' Yeah, I know. Because they wanted to sponsor the event and they sent us a bunch of free David bars, but then they were in the news, you know, that week with some controversy, but yeah."

"Well, so here's the thing about... I mean, doing it a long time, what is ultimately... if a single nutrient or ingredient is being used to market or promote your product... do you remember, like, I remember being at a party somewhere and someone was like, 'I only drink Tito's because it's gluten-free.' Okay, yeah, I remember that."

"And I'm like, well, kudos to this company for knowing what is really like bubbling and popping in terms of marketing and interest. But when you're asking yourself like, 'Is it real? What to believe?' I think the first thing I'm going to ask you to do is like, how close to actual food is it? And what percentage of my food matrix? How often am I going to use this? Is this something that's like a one-off and it's fun, or am I going to be drinking this every single day as my breakfast?"

"So that's where you start to like rank-order how helpful this tool is and how worried I need to be about it. Because if it's something you're interacting with like once, okay, well, that's fine. But if it's something you're doing every day or multiple times a day, and you're starting and refueling with a donut, a protein donut, that's... I'm asking you just like, let's be a little more curious. How does this fit in? How does your body feel when you eat it? And your body's going to give you information, right? It's going to say like, 'Yeah, that was actually really great.' Or, 'Man, I felt terrible. I can't believe I ate that thing. It's gross and I feel terrible.'"

"So, again, just it's like being curious and not just listening to the labels, not just looking at the hype, but really figuring out how this is going to fit into your strategy. How do you feel when you eat it? And really figuring out how close... or is this going to move you towards your ultimate goal about really nourishing and caring for yourself, right? Is this a tool? Great. If this is a quick one-off, great. But again, just trying to be, you know, curious about it. Um, you know, and again, I always get a little bit suspicious when they're marketing it based on a single nutrient."

"Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, the interesting thing about all of this is as you get more and more, the road narrows, right? And you can tell what works for you and what doesn't. I think back to a time when it was like whatever United Airlines was serving—I couldn't tell you, you know, the signal, the noise or whatever. I mean, it was just you just eating it. And now it's like I'm really in tune with the stuff like, 'Oh my gosh, that's terrible. Can't—can't eat that at all.' We're coming to that point in time where we need to wrap up. So, rapid-fire around the table. Christy, what do you got?"

"Well, I think my approach for—like we're talking for patients—try to just help them live. The real goal for me is not just to help them eat and perform well for today, but to help them create and continue to perform and adapt and thrive for the next 20, 30, 40 years, whatever that might be. And train and eat for the life you want to live, not the body you want. I try to make sure patients understand that. And then I know we've talked like longevity—there's so much, I mean, it's 'optimal this, optimal this' and it becomes very rigid. And longevity requires a lot of flexibility because the body thrives on consistency, not perfection."

"Awesome. All right, who's taking the next one?"

"I'll just say thank you to Robin. You gave me a lot of things to think about. There are some protein things that I would take just because, you know, I wanted to get the protein intake number for the day. And I didn't even think about it—that I feel pretty crappy after I eat that protein bar every time. But I just didn't even consider that that was even something to think about because I was, you know, trying to do the right thing. So, yeah, no. Thank you, Robin, really. You've given me some tips that will change the way I'm kind of thinking about food. And I'm always looking for more of the psychological aspects like Frank was talking about because it is—it is all in your head."

"Frank, what do you think?"

"I mean, we addressed a lot of things today, and you know, for me, the psychology piece was—was the key. It was actually helpful to actually learn them from Robin, you know? And I just think that it's all about balance like Christy talked about, you know? It's just, you know, I think to really kind of to win this fight, you know, when it comes to nutrition, really, you just have to approach it with a really balanced approach and a long-term goal on how you're going to, you know, consistently improve really at the end of the day, you know? And team up with smart people like Robin, Christy, and Craig out there to just kind of help you, you know, guide you throughout the whole thing."

"Because there's so many things involved, you know, with under-fueling and all those things that we talked about that we even addressed. I mean, the minute you start going this route, it's going to affect a lot of other things downstream—your testosterone, your T3, all kinds of funky stuff that you have no idea about, you know? So, I think for everybody out there, with the rise of AI out there and becoming neurotic on what you eat is not a good way to go. It's really kind of approaching the journey with smart people that can kind of guide you throughout this journey."

"All right, Craig, what's the—what's the final thought here?"

"Well, my final thought is Robin, I hope you're making the podcast circuit because you are great. What a—yeah, absolutely great episode and tons of information. So, thank you for being here. This is awesome. And I think, you know, again going back to what Frank said, balance—balance is key, right? So, we can't think of carbohydrates as the enemy, especially for athletes that are doing like, you know, hypertrophy work or things that are heavily relying on glycolysis and explosive stuff in the gym—you need to have some carbohydrates in your diet."

"The flip side of that is that we want to prevent, you know, glucose volatility, right? So one of the major drivers of inflammation and oxidative stress is going to be these rapid spikes, these big swings in blood glucose. So, balance, averaging things out, knowing that we need to hit our protein and caloric thresholds, but also thinking of carbohydrates as an ally and a friend—things that we can utilize appropriately. Yeah."

"Did you say carbohydrates as a friend?"

"Yeah, right, I know."

"Yeah, I just want to make sure I heard it right. I love it. I love it."

"Yeah, it's a strategic—strategic use of carbs. Yeah."

"Think about—I mean, we have a lot of—we have the blessing of abundance. We have a blessing of choice. We have a blessing of like options here in our country. And so one of the things I always recommend is, you know, first of all, look at the thing you're about... every single time you put food or fuel in your body, you have a choice. It's an opportunity to learn something. It's an opportunity to think about it. It's an opportunity to either—to like, what are we about to do? And not to be—I don't want people neurotic and monitoring every time they eat. Don't really have time for that, I hope people don't get there. But what I'm saying is that we actually, at the end of the day, have a lot of control and choice."

"And so if you need a tool because you know you just wake up in the morning and you're like, 'I can't...' are you putting the best tool that you can in your body? And if you're not sure, reach out. Get an expert on your team. Reach out to a sports dietitian. Reach out to someone who—this is what they do, because you can't do it alone. It's hard. You need a team of experts and guides and mentors around you to bounce information off of and to help—to call you out when you're not, you know what I mean?"

"So I would just encourage people in their journey to stay open, to stay curious. If they have questions, to ask an expert and to feel free to make mistakes and know that nothing is undone by a single meal or a single eating event. And every time you eat, you have the opportunity to make a different choice, and that's kind of a cool thing, I believe. So, yeah, but it's been a real pleasure. Thank you guys so much for letting me come on and speak with you guys and share ideas. It's been really great."

"That's been fantastic. We thank you so much for being with us today. And as we wrap up, we'll have some information in the show notes about how to find you. And we want to just thank everyone for watching. Remember, please like, share, and subscribe, and especially share this one. I know I'm going to go back and watch it like three times because I'm the slow one in the group and I have to try to keep up. It's been a lot of fun and we'll see you on the next one."