25 Years Later 9/11 Still Hits Hard: FBI Super Agent

I was sitting in the operation center shortly after, uh, the planes hit and I remember George Bush saying, "I don't care what you do to them. All I want you to reassure me is this never ever happens again." You're dealing with high-stakes stuff. It's very, very physical. But the mental part is what usually causes people to quit. As a team member, one of the most important things that you can do for your team is learn from everyone's mistakes and not expect for you to be a peak performer without learning from those mistakes.

Did you ever work with anybody that you go, "Dude, if I had an opportunity, I'd just take you out back and kick you."

100%. Yeah, it happens. And I can say proudly that even the guys that I may have got into, you know, a fight with, um, I can still today pick up the phone and call them and rely on them and call him my friend.

Jeff Harp, my main man. Welcome back to the Pathway to Peak Performance. So good to see you, my friend. How have you been?

Been good, Jock. How have you been?

Outstanding. Thank you. All right, my man. You know how that works. Uh, what's the charity this time?

Tunnel to Towers. Uh, it's a organization, um, ran by, uh, the brother of a NYFD, uh, person who was killed at 9/11, and he started this and it's for first responders, military, and they do a lot of good work.

Yeah, for sure. A lot of good work. Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that 20 years later or whatever the number of years it is now, it's more than that. 25, right? 20 coming up. Yeah. Um, there are a lot of people that are still dealing with that.

Yeah. I mean, so there's, uh, a lot of people who responded to those events that, you know, like my brother was wading through benzene and asbestos and and everything else. And if you weren't wearing your PPE or if it got through the PPE or if, you know, you were exposed to it beyond what the limits are supposed to be, then, I mean, I know there's a number of FBI agents that have died from some cancer-related illness.

Yeah. Pretty gnarly stuff. Um, hardcore, hardcore, huge sacrifice. Um, and after that for our freedom, um, you know, one of the things I always say is that I think the bureau just really did a phenomenal job on. And obviously, you know, there was some joint operations stuff going on between the different agencies, but, you know, the fact that we never had another serious, uh, attack and we haven't had that in 25 years speaks volumes to the capability of the bureau at that time. Um, and I, you know, I don't think we need to get into the the politics of anything, but what I will say is the capability of the bureau to actually just make that happen. Um, pretty incredible.

Yeah. I mean, it was a lot of interagency working that made it happen and continues to make it happen. Um, and it's about developing those personal relationships with people in these other agencies. I was sitting in the operation center shortly after, uh, the planes hit. Everybody was called into the operations center headquarters and, uh, September 12th, George Bush came over and he was talking to the director of the FBI and he looked at the director and he said, you know, the the FBI director says, "Look, you know, Mr. President, we're going to find out who do who did this. We're going to get them and we're going to make sure that we prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law." And I remember George Bush saying, "I don't care what you do to them. All I want you to reassure me is this never ever happens again."

So, yeah, man. It gives me chills to this day. And I can remember being there and watching it on the screen going and just saying, "Whoa, uh, this is like—" It was surreal.

Yeah. I didn't think it was real. I was sitting in a office like this. I I I remember thinking to myself, I I was like sort of just dumbstruck by it.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And then afterwards, you've got 93 up and out, you know, just going like, and you don't know what's— I mean, it's— I mean, holy smokes. And I was on the way to the airport and I was shut down. My brother called me and he's like, "No, you're— you're a no-go." Well, one of the planes, uh, I believe maybe 77. One of them was coming to San Francisco.

Yeah, it was— I think it was— it was 77 or it was a 80. I don't know. And I had flown that the week before, the one out of Logan, right?

Yep. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, you know, it's hard to imagine. It seems like forever ago, but it wasn't.

Yeah. Oh, to me it's just like— I don't spend too much time on Netflix or, you know, Prime or any of these channels watching these documentaries. Not that they're not good. They're not— not that they're not entertaining. It's just I lived it. You know, I lived through that experience. I was sitting in FBI headquarters in the counterterrorism division working on a hostage situation, uh, for the FBI. Um, the day it happened, I drove in to FBI headquarters from my house down by Quantico that day and picked up three of my colleagues and one of my HRT colleagues to go to headquarters that day. And I'm telling you, it was a crystal clear blue day there. To me, when I, you know, my colleague came and said, "Hey, look at the television." He said, "A helicopter, an airplane." I thought maybe a small aircraft, but in my mind I'm like, how did this pilot not see, you know, one of the tallest buildings in the entire world on a clear day in New York City? And while I was watching the screen, the second plane hit and that's when all the other alarms went off at headquarters and the rest is history.

Yeah. Well, the first part I thought it was like, okay, um, you know, having spent some time in the right seat with my dad, I thought, okay, well, somebody had a heart attack and he just basically were on path and just hit it. Yeah. When that second— when I watched that second plane come in, I was— I mean, I watched it. I'm like, "Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh." And boom. Uh, that was abs— I just was— I was just floored by that. I couldn't believe it. And just watching that— by the time the buildings collapsed I was sitting in the operations center and of course we had video feed from everywhere and, I mean, it's just— it's gut-wrenching to see or relive or look at those memories in my mind of those people. Some people jumped out of the building and burning to death is horrible. I'm not sure, you know, you— if you jump, you're likely going to die, but burning to death is horrible.

Well, you just can't take the heat.

Can't take the heat. You've got to get out. I remember it vividly and I remember, you know, the conversations that we were listening to, uh, NORAD with flight 93 that had not yet, uh, crashed in Pennsylvania. And so it was just— I mean, it it gives me coach chills now to think about it. Um, but it was— it was surreal. It was just like, wow, is this really happening? You know, are we really considering shooting down a passenger jet? And so, you know, that's— it was super serious. Super serious.

Yeah. A heavy, heavy duty moment in time. One that none of us will ever forget. Here we are on the 250th, uh, year of, um, our country and, um, 25 years ago we had this— this thing happened. It's kind of weird how the math works out there, but, um, yeah, I mean, they— it's— it's bad memories, man. It's just not something I really want to spend a lot of time with, but, uh, here we are.

All right, so hey, man. The show is— is, uh, sponsored by KetoneAid and I would have— you've never done these before, right?

Never.

Okay. So, I would have you do the K4, which is the stuff that I I like and I take every day, but it's a little, uh, hardcore. So, we're going to go with the lighter version. We're going to— we're going to kind of work you in.

You sure you want me to have more energy?

No. You know what I always tell people? Dude, you're the hardest working guy I know. There's nobody that works harder than you, dude. All right, so, um, what— here you can see it's the pop— the the top is unpopped. You're gonna pop that and, uh, take these two cups that are right here. Take yours and, uh, and just go ahead and put in like—

Pour the whole thing in.

Well, no. Put half and half. Well, half in mine, half in yours. You can figure out the, uh—

What half is.

Yeah, it's kind of hard with the label, but you get a sense for it.

There you go.

Uh, all right. I got the bigger— I got the bigger one. All right. Cool. All right. So, cheers.

Got to love that stuff.

All right. Now, do I turn into Superman?

This is where you turn green.

Mhm. We— we try not to make you angry.

That's— that's all right.

It's always a good idea not to make a Marine Corps Sniper School graduate angry.

All right. Um, so I want to get into a couple of things. Let's— there's two parts today I want to talk about. Last time we covered the whole gamut, but we did it in like the full range. And so I've been dying to do this part with you, which is the, um, HRT selection, really breaking down what— once you get to the team, what is it like? What is a team? Because it's d— what people don't understand is it's dramatically different. But people talk about teams out here, right? We're not— they're not talking about the same team.

Mhm.

It's a totally different deal. So, let's go through— your class was the last class to go through, uh, the selection process in July.

It was. Yeah.

And there's a reason why, because you guys got— you had, you know, dudes coming off with IVs who were basically dropping over.

Yeah. I mean, so July in Virginia, and anybody that's ever lived in Virginia knows that, uh, it's sweltering hot, it's humid, it it it's almost unbearable at times. Um, I went through the academy in July as well. Um, so yeah, selection at that time, I I'm pretty sure it was 100 or close to it. Then you add the heat index with humidity, it was— it was unbearable. It was unbearable. So we had guys day one, you know, being hauled off, you know, airlift or ambulance, all, you know, people getting IVs for dehydration. And so it was pretty tough. It was pretty tough.

Yeah. So let's talk about that selection process. Let's go through like a day in the life of— I mean, and I think it'd be easy, like, you know, you talked about, hey, I'm sort of here on the day one. Let's get towards the end of it where you've seen some people who'd had the do, right? They just can't make it.

Yeah.

Um, so, you know, your class— what starts out with how many people in it?

You roughly start out with, you know, 35 to 50 people that show up day one and the very first thing you do is you do a physical fitness test and it's a— the HRT physical fitness test.

Pretty brutal.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's an obstacle course, there's, you know, the pull-ups. There's a run up eight flights of stairs with body armor on with plates and a battering ram. It's all pretty tough. And these are all— every event is timed, you know, it's not unlimited time. And so day one, um, and there's a psychological aspect to this too because as a— a former operator, you know, because you go through each selection with each class, it's, you know— as an operator you go through the selections each time and you understand that that psychological factor is really important. You show up to Quantico, you're already an FBI agent. You know, when you show up for HRT selection, you're already an FBI agent, you have a full-time job with the FBI, nobody's making you be here, and you can quit at any time and go back to your comfortable life in the field office. So, those things are really, you know, a big factor of making you want to leave or or making it easy for you to ring the bell to go.

Yeah. And like, you know, it's funny. I talked to Fuss the other day and so this— like there's an interesting distinction there, right? Because if you don't— if you're in BUD/S and you don't make it, it's a good chance you're gonna be sitting on some ship, you know, flipping burgers, right? Or, you know, right? Doing something you don't want to do, right? You know, unless you got a special kind of, u, you know, agreement, but, you know, so that— that is— I mean, I think that is a key point, right? You can go home and take this comfortable, nice, easy. You got to— I think for people to understand, you really have to want to be there.

You really want to be there. I mean, it's— again, you go back to your very, very comfortable life. Most of the— I'd say 99% of the people that show up are motivated. You know, most of them on a SWAT team. Most of them are, you know, highly performing agents because you go through sort of a pre-selection criteria to even apply and you have to have good recommendations. You have— there's a lot of factors that go into it. And so, you're not showing up with a group of slugs. These guys are all highly motivated people, former military, you know, former college athletes, people who are, you know, very, very good at their job as an FBI agent, physically fit. So, yeah, you can just ring that bell anytime you want and there's no harm, no foul. You're— you're free to go. And but, you know, they're not encouraging it, but they're not discouraging it. Matter of fact, there's very little communication between you and the operators. The operators are there to observe. You carry a 3x5 card and everybody wears a pinny, a jersey with a number on it, and that becomes your life. You know, you become— I was yellow one, I think. And, uh, I was yellow one for those 14 days and I wasn't Jeff. So yellow one became my name. Um, and so that's how they refer to you. So there's no, uh— it's very objective. So there's no subjectivity. And I knew a couple guys on the on the team beforehand. But another key distinction too is you look at— okay, so let's just go— go over on the army side. Uh, if you're going to go— if you're going to make, uh, CAG or Delta, whatever, you've been in Ranger Battalion, so you're— you're— you're worked up, right? Most of the guys are.

Yeah. Yeah. If you're going to be, uh, FAST, you know, if you're going to be a Raider, Recon on the Marine Corps side, you— you know, you're pretty much— you're already probably, you know, pretty worked up. Maybe not as much as Ranger Battalion. I mean, it's arguable, right?

Mhm.

SEALs, uh, those guys are going through BUD/S. They don't— that's— I mean, they just came out of boot, right?

Some did. You know, some— like, you know, one of my very close friends, a former SEAL who I just spent a week with rafting, we talked about a little bit. And so he went to Officer Candidate School after he graduated from college. He gets commissioned and he— the the way that BUD/S classes work is academy gets, you know, the first classes go to the Naval Academy graduates and then there's a, you know, hierarchy how they— the way I understand is how those guys get selected. And then, you know, you've got a group who are, you know, just out of OCS, and so he had to wait for his slot and it doesn't just happen right away normally. And Brian was assigned to a ship and then he went to an intel group. Uh, so he went to an intel school. And so he— if let's say Brian didn't make it through BUD/S, he would likely have fallen back into an intel, uh, responsibility with the Navy.

Yeah. There's just a lot of guys now that are getting, uh, young guys that are getting those contracts that are basically, hey, you're going to go straight— straight in. Uh, that's what they're joining for, right? And if they don't get it, then it's just like, "Hey, you're going wherever we're going to put you."

Yep. Well, I mean, once you sign up with the military, you sign up with the military, you're done.

You're done. Yeah. I mean, and the FBI, HRT tells you the same thing. You're an FBI agent. You don't sign up to be a hostage rescue team member. Now, we do have a, um, a fast track for those guys who qualify, um, that they can apply after two years, but they still have to get through the FBI academy as a special agent. And so once they do that and they serve their, I think, two-year period in the field office, then they come through the HRT selection process.

Yeah. Okay, man. So, let's go. We're, uh, 3/4 of the way through. You also had a really interesting thing happen to you in that— in that period of time. So, um, let's go. We're three-quarters of the way through.

Yeah. You're somewhere your second week. Second week, you're— you're now— you're seeing the end of the tunnel, right? And you've seen a number of people, uh, drop out, uh, and then you're still standing and you're thinking to yourself at that point in time, I'm making this, right? You know, I wouldn't say that I was saying I'm— I'm making this. What I said to myself was I'm getting through this. You know, nothing's going to stand in my way. You would probably have to dismember me, you know, and have to be one of my body parts that keep me moving in order to not finish. Um, but yeah, I I took my watch off day one. Um, because to me, time didn't matter. I knew there was a finite period of time that I was going to be there and looking at my watch wasn't going to help anything. Wasn't going to hurt anything, but wasn't going to speed the clock up. And it really didn't matter what time it was or how much time was left. I knew that there was a finite period of time that this was going to— this pain was going to last and it was going to be over. And I just had to make it through that finite period of time.

Just riding it out.

Just riding it out.

Yeah.

And doing the best I could. And, you know, you have to, you know, overcome— you, you know, people get shin splints. You know, I freaking twisted my ankle on one of the runs. And I mean, you just have to kind of forge your way through. And, um, there were some things that, you know, you think about beforehand. You know, maybe a little backpack would be nice to have that I can bring some, you know, energy packs or some protein bars or or some— because you don't have time to eat. You don't have a whole lot of time to do anything other than, you know, what you're doing during selection. So, uh, you know, always changing socks, taking care of your feet. And every— every special forces, Navy SEAL, you know, 75th Ranger Battalion guy will say that your feet need to be taken care of when you're— when you're out and about on these events because that will— that will, uh, eliminate you from the process.

Yeah. I mean, if you can't— if you can't run—

If you can't walk, if you can't move. And I, you know, there was a SEAL in my selection process that, uh, his— his feet ended up being a problem. He got an infection on one of his ankles and they had, uh, they had to cut him because of it and because he just could not continue. It was a shame. Great guy, good friend, but, um, he— he just couldn't continue because of— of his foot.

That's just shows you on any given day, right?

Any given day. Yeah. You can go into the gym and you can have a lift that you did the week before and think you're going to progressive overload that lift and you're going to go up in weight and you find out that you got to drop it by 25.

Yeah, it— it just happens. It's just life, you know. That again is one of those mental things that people ask me about, the physical aspect of, uh, HRT selection, and it's physical. It's very, very physical. But the mental part is what usually causes people to quit.

Yeah. And they're looking for that, right?

Absolutely. They're not encouraging you to quit, but they're certainly not, um, advocating for you to stay, right? Because that's all part of the process. Um, you know, the old saying about you don't want a quitter in a fight. Well, that's— it's kind of— it means the same thing with— in HRT selection. You want to make sure that the people that are there are there because they want to be there and they're going to fight through whatever they have to endure. That's super important because, you know, in a gunfight, in a high— highly stressful situation during training, you got to be able to understand that, hey, I can get through this.

Yeah. So all right. So, you know, there— you get to the end of this thing. What's the feeling like as you progress through?

Um, the first week is extremely grueling because they want you to— you know, they wanted all the quitters need to quit the first week. The second week, there's a lot of focus on firearms, CQB, uh, you know, all these other dynamic entries and decision-making models that they use because you're mentally and physically drained. And since they can't shoot live bullets at you, they want to see how you perform under pressure. So, a lot of week two is performance under pressure. Um, and nobody does perfect. You know, you— we actually have like wrestling events and swimming and, you know, a lot of these things and boxing, and because they're trying to completely exhaust you. And, you know, day one— and guys kind of couch the training or the selection like that. Day one, you know, week one, day one, week one, day two, those— you know, you kind of move through the events like that. So week two, day one, there's, you know, certain events that happen and, you know, you make it through. To me, it was day by day. You know, I just got to get through this day, you know, and unfortunately the days were 23 and a half hours long, but I knew at the end of the 23 and a half hours, there was a new day, right? And I would just have to make it through that one and the next one and the next one. So, I— I think a lot of, uh, your guys that go through these special operations, uh, selection events, they— that's the same thing. I've— I've talked to the guys. Yeah, I just, you know, one day at a time. I can't tell you how I'm going to do week two, day four because, you know, I don't know what's going to happen week two, day one.

Yeah. I mean, how many times have you heard it's like 15 minutes at a time or five minutes? It's just like— it's just not— I'm just not quitting in this moment, right?

And that's the way I looked at— I I I said, you know, we would have an event. Okay, I'm going to make it through this event. And I may not score per— perfect, but I'm going to get through the event. And the proctors who are watching are going to see that I'm doing the best I can. And if that meets the standard, so be it. If not, I leave proudly.

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All right. So, let's get down to the real thing that we're trying to get to today, which is what is a team and how— when you're operating in HRT, you're dealing with high, high stakes stuff, right? This isn't like when you worked LA— when you worked LA, you were on LA SWAT, FBI SWAT, not Los Angeles police. Two totally different— FBI SWAT, it's a different— that's a different tier, right? You're the guys that they call when they can't get it done, right? So so you— you come out of— you come out of pretty— that's a heavy duty SWAT team.

Yeah, it was considered an enhanced SWAT team. They had more capabilities than there— I think there were eight enhanced SWAT teams in the bureau at that time, and, uh, LA was one of them. And our SWAT team leader was a former HRT guy. So, um, he pushed the envelope as far as what the regional SWAT teams could do.

Well, and he's also the guy that encouraged you to go HRT, right?

He talked about it a lot. Yeah. I mean, he had to make a recommendation and, um, so he— I, you know, he was a sort of a mentor type for that process.

Well, what I think is interesting about that, too, is that you're kind of a younger guy. Uh, and, um, you know, to make that recommendation, he hadn't know that you were like— he— he figured it out. He knew that you'd make it.

Maybe. I don't know. I don't— I wouldn't say that. I've seen a lot of guys come in day one and think, "Wow, that guy's a stud." And day three, I see him carrying his bags out, he's going home. So, it's, you know, it's really, really hard to predict. And I think any SEAL that's made it through BUD/S will tell you the same thing, that on day one at BUD/S, if you line them all up, who you think's going to be standing at the end of that training? It— there are a lot of factors that go into it.

So let's get on to the team part. And now, you know, when you're— when you're operating as a team, there are always these personal dynamics that are involved. Um, so, you know, you know what your kind of mission set is, you know what role you're playing within that. Uh, I think at one point in time you were sniper, you're a breacher, you've done a lot of things within that— within that role. How do you deal with the dynamics within the team on when you've got some friction with some guys or are you getting it smoothed out? Like, if we go back to Matthew in the Bible, right? So you're going to just basically talk to the person direct, then you're going to take to the group, then you're going to take it to the church afterwards, right? So, we're just kind of using that as a metaphor for what I'm talking about. Hey, you got some friction with the guy, how he's handling it. Are you going to him and you're saying, "Hey, look, you know, when you do this, uh, you're producing a result that's not working."

Yeah.

For me or for the team. Take me through it.

Yeah. So, at the HRT compound, we have a cage and we throw the two guys in there and we just let them go at it. Right. I'm kidding. Yeah.

I was hoping you were gonna say that, like it's a death match.

Yeah. I mean, it's— it's a great question because, I mean, you can imagine a bunch of ultra— not just type A— you think, well, FBI is probably a lot of type A people. Now you take that subset and you pull from it.

Super apex.

Yeah. And so you— and everybody was, you know, did something wonderful in their life and they all don't— it don't take a lot of advice very kindly. Um, you have to be super humble. But as far as the team dynamics go, after the selection process, as you go through a, you know, four, six month new operators training and you're evaluated during that period of time, and they try to figure out where are the openings on the team. So when I was there, there was, uh, you know, four assault teams, four sniper teams, and each team had a sub team, had, you know, seven, eight guys on it. And so you were going to be placed either as an assaulter or a sniper into one of these sub teams. My new operators training group went through the sniper school. So, we all were sniper qualified. So, we could have all gone to sniper team. Uh, or we could have all gone to an assault team. It really didn't matter. And so, they— they try to figure out, you know, what is your personality? Where's it going to— where is it going to fit best? And doesn't always work out. Um, but you have to make it work. And I think the important part of that is you have to make it work. It's not up to others to conform to your standard. It's up to you to conform to— conform to the HRT standard. That oftentimes is not an easy task, and it's certainly not an easy task among— among a group of men who are, you know, ultra type A performance individuals. There's friction among the team. I mean, did I see guys get in fights? Yeah, but they worked it out. Um, was it wrong to let two guys, you know, go to battle against each other? I don't know. I mean, I I saw it in the high school wrestling room. I saw it in the college wrestling. You get a bunch of guys together and probably gals the same way in an event, athletic event, or, you know, military environment. Everybody's not going to get along all the time. And the thing about selection is they— they try to bring that out because they want to see how are you going to perform with your peers under pressure, sleep-deprived and, you know, hungry. And so this— they can evaluate that. And it's during the process of selection, um, when you talk about teams, we go through peer evals, and so we actually evaluate each other, the selectees do. You do it maybe on day three and, you know, day 13, and there's sometimes stark differences between what you thought on day three of your— your, uh, teammate versus what you thought of him on— on day 13.

Yeah, it may— it's interesting, right? It could decrease or it could increase it.

Absolutely. And— and I tell you, I've seen it go both ways. I've seen it stay high across the board. I've seen it stay high to super low. You know, I remember during my selection during one of the peer evals, and I'm not going to bring names up or even, you know, jersey colors because it'd be easy to figure it out, but my team had been— my team had been whittled down to, you know, a smaller subgroup. So, we merged with another team who had an individual who probably shouldn't have been there, but was, and he was still around. And they asked for me and another, uh, operator, another selectee, to carry his stuff. And I was already exhausted and he had brought too much stuff and really wasn't prepared. And, uh, you know, we were on a march that day in, uh, you know, 24 mile rucksack march. And, you know, here we are, I'm not a big guy, and here I am taking this big guy's stuff and throwing it in my bag and I'm taking his body armor and we're splitting up his shotgun and and everything else. And you know, those kind of dynamics are interesting to watch because as an operator watching this, it makes you understand, yeah, it's not great. It's not a great, uh, feeling to have to take on somebody else's, but, you know, I guess at some point in real life, you may have to do that when you're tired and exhausted. So, it does test sort of your mental fortitude. Um, and it— the team dynamics become, uh, can become a little weird at that point because, you know, what my— that my sub team at that point was, I don't know, six or seven people. And why was it me and another guy? Why'd they pick us to carry this guy's crap? You know, they could have divided it up among all six. Why me and this other guy? And, uh, you know, you kind of happily, in quotes, do it. But it really— it challenges you mentally and it certainly shows, um, the selecting committee how are you going to deal with that. Um, it— it's the team— you— the team is— it— it becomes a team event and they tell you whether this is a team or an individual event. And so those are kind of important dynamics because if it's a team event, you're only as good as your worst performer.

Well, you're— I mean, that's interesting because you're borrowing that whole HRT selection process is borrowing from Delta, right?

Yeah. It's a CAG oriented selection process.

The entire thing is distilled down from that. You're not borrowing from the— from— do they take any elements of that out of—

Yeah. So they— when they— when they, um, sort of developed the hostage rescue team, um, they didn't really know what they wanted, but in 1984 we had the Olympics in Los Angeles. We didn't want a reoccurrence of what happened in Munich. And so they said we need a domestic, you know, counterterrorism team similar to, uh, Delta or SEAL teams that could per— that can perform those duties inside the United States because Posse Comitatus— all the— there— not that the military couldn't get involved, but it is much easier if you have a tier one asset that is a domestic sort of law enforcement team. So they developed this hostage rescue team. So, they went to Delta, they went, you know, they went to the Army, and they went to the Navy, and they said, "What's your process? We can't hold a six-month selection. It's just— it's not feasible. What can we do in, you know, 14 days or so evaluating a group of people?" And so, we— we did that. We selected different things out of the— the— the selection process for the SEALs and for Delta to try to put something together that, um, mimicked what they were doing. And, you know, we came up with our— with our process. And it's been tested and tried. You know, it's been tested by, you know, lawsuits. It's been test— been tested by, you know, groups that are against how we conduct our process. And it has never ever, uh— it's been challenged, but it's never been overturned.

Really think about that, right? If you're taking something that is a six-month process and you're distilling that down into two weeks, you can't take— you can't take the the cumulative effect of that six months, but you can take the parts that are going to actually break somebody and put them into a compression. That is like— that's like pressing diamonds, dude. That's pretty intense. Um, so that is a really interesting distinction there. So you got— you got the best of the best. You're going through this process. You're now— you're now in the teams or the team, but you've got multiple groups within that and you're working out the friction along the way that you find with guys that you're working with. Did you ever work with anybody that you're like, all, uh— and no names, right? But, um, that you go, "Dude, if I had an opportunity, I'd just take you out back and kick you."

100%. Yeah. And occasionally— I mean, I I don't know who's going to view this, but I'm sure people that know me or know guys on the team. Yeah. I mean, I gotten a few fisticuffs myself, you know, and it happens. And, uh, I can say proudly that even the guys that I may have gotten into, you know, a fight with, um, I can still today pick up the phone and call them and rely on them and call them my friend. Uh, you're— you're under pressure, things happen. So, and you know, we're human and so we will not always be the best teammate that we could be, but it's important to try to be the best teammate and person you can so you can help advance that team's cause.

At the end of the day, we still are working for the same end goal, right? You have that in common.

I always said no matter what— I mean, I— there were, like I said, there were people that I may have not saw eye to eye with, but at the end of the day, I would put my life on the blindfold.

Yeah, let's get into the elements of what great team work— what— what is it? How does it work? People have different views of what a team is and, uh, what makes a team function and work.

You can't have all like personalities on a team. You may think that's perfect, but at the end of the day, that doesn't work because you need some diversity on your team in order to understand points of view from all aspects of life. And this just isn't a tactical team. I'm talking about, you know, work units and everything else. You need to be able to understand other points of view. Now, on the hostage rescue team, as a new member, we're— when we're going through a briefing, I'm likely not going to stand up and go, "Yeah, I don't think this is right." But as a new member, what I would likely do is absorb everything from all of the senior members and learn from their mistakes. And I think as a team member, one of the most important things that you can do for your team is learn from everyone's mistakes and— and not expect for you to be a perfect performer or a peak performer without learning from those mistakes.

And then you're sort of— you're making notes on that. So when you get to that senior role, you're kind of— you're trying to— each evolution you're going through, you're trying to actually, you know, one up it. You're trying to be a better person. You're trying to be a better teammate. HRT, you're trying to be a better operator because, um, you know, in life at work, if your team fails, it doesn't necessarily mean the end of life, end— or death. Whereas on the hostage rescue team, if your team fails or if you fail some portion of that mission, it could result in your death or a teammate's death or the death of innocent of people or the death of innocent people.

Yeah. Called to— to a heavy duty mission and the serious responsibility. And that, uh, brings us to the next point, which is in that team when you're working that there is a tremendous amount of stress and pressure associated with it. And that's why I think you see these high rates of divorce, high rates of all the stuff, uh, PTSD, because you guys are exposed to things that people just don't understand how hardcore that actually is and the stress and the pressure that's associated with it. Like, hey, you miss a number. Uh, okay. Somebody's not getting a bonus. You miss a number on your side, right? You're two clicks off on the shot and you miss and somebody gets smoked. Uh, you're living with that, right? Right. So, you know, let's talk about how you unwind and decompress from those intense situations. I know you've been— I I know some of the situations that you've been in were super intense, like hardcore intense. So, how do you— how do you disengage from that?

I think everybody probably deals with it differently. And I recently spoke to a really close friend of mine that was on the team who served at the same time. Um, and he was a team leader. And I asked him, I said, "Hey, do you have any dreams at night? You know, do you ever, you know, have nightmares? Do you ever dream?" He goes, "Yeah, every once in a while, you know, my— my wife will say that, you know, I'm— I'm making noise." And I said, "Yeah, me too." I don't— I don't feel like I have any PTSD and I don't feel like, you know, my life isn't suffering because of that. I— but I was just curious if I was the only one. And I'm not the only one, but I think every person kind of deals with those events in life differently. I, you know, I still have dreams about— crazy dreams and they're just very odd. You know, sometimes I'm screaming and yelling in the middle of the night about I couldn't even tell you about what. Um, every now and then I do remember. Uh, but I'll have a dream that I'm chasing a fugitive and I go to shoot the fugitive and I pull the trigger and my gun falls apart. You know, I— or I see the bullet come out of the end of the barrel and just drop. I mean, it's just very strange things. And I think what happens— the mind is so complex and, you know, I am not even remotely close to some of your guests and their level of understanding of the body and the mind and, um, I— the mind is so complex. And I think as you grow up in life, your life experiences help you learn to decompress in whatever way your mind, uh, is able to survive it. Um, and I think wrestling probably helped me a lot with that because it is grueling. It is tough. It is painful. And it made me understand that I can get through anything. And so, somebody that maybe didn't have wrestling or another sport, they did it some other way. Um, and I'm sure, uh, you know, some of your highly educated guests, you know, felt the same way about, well, I'm getting through calculus or medical school or some of those things. They have to because there's stress behind that. You know, I have friends that are— went through law school and they— it's like I get a cold sweat when I think about law school. So, um, people perform at extreme levels because they train at extreme levels. They decompress sort of, I think, in the same way. They— they've gone through these series of trainings, and for me it was sort of like— like automatic pilot that, you know, you would go into these events and you've trained so much. You know, people— you've heard the saying, I didn't have time to think about what I was doing, it was just automatic. And that's, you know, that's a little bit of a cliche, but it— it's— it's true. But what happens is, you know, muscle memory and the things that you've done over and over and over and over again, it becomes very familiar in your mind and you've connected sort of these electrodes in your brain that know when A happens you do B, and you don't have to think about A and when A happens do I connect B. It just happens because you've done it a thousand or 10,000 times. And I think when you unwind— whenever you go through these events and you've done all this training, you don't have time to think about the criticality of it. What you have time to do is what you've been trained to do. And as you unwind, you— you can process that and think, well, you know, I did the best I could, or I did what I was supposed to do, or this event didn't go exactly as planned and here's what I can do next time. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really, uh, you know, there's a reason why you dry fire, right? It's over and over and over again. Draw, practice, drill, rehearse, practice, drill, rehearse, practice. So the reps that you get, uh, in anything, right? So that could be in— in your case that's, you know, all the things that you're doing. People that we're talking about that are like the doctors, it's like, hey, I've seen this type of, um, situation numerous times and I can apply new information to this and I can learn how to deal with this and and and maybe manage it better. I think for those guys, they deal with a situation all the time. I mean, you can imagine if you've got people where you're— they're, you know, you're— you're responsible for their health. Um, you're always wondering, right? Is— is what I said the right thing? Um, so it's interesting to think about people who live in high stress situations and, um, how they actually decompress. Everybody again is different.

And, you know, one thing I love that you said was that if you had everybody the same on a team— it's 100% true. I 100% agree with that. And if we broke it down, like Myers-Briggs is just too much for this exercise, so if we just use the DISC formula, right, and we look at— we took a look at the D's. Hey, results-oriented, right? That's— at the end of the day, all I want to do is, uh, what— what's the course and what's the record?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then you have the I's that are super enthusiastic for the whole thing and like they're there. And you have the C's that are like, I got to figure out every last A, you know what? How much charge am I going to need on this particular door in order to make that thing go so I don't have a, you know, so we get through. And you have the S that are the super supporters like, hey guys, what do you need? Uh, I've got you, you know, like, hey, I'll take stuff in your pack and I'll carry it. That— that's— it's a really interesting sort of, uh, thought process around teams and, um, and the notion that you do need diversity and it's great to have. I mean, oftentimes there are guys that I talk to now that I just say, I need you to check my thinking. Like, am I seeing this the right way? Like, you know, is this— is this the right thing? Cuz I'm not sure.

Yeah. Even among these high performing teams and that DISC model, it sort of, uh, evolves. And people— I've taken those tests a number of time that, you know, the countless psychological tests for the bureau and for HRT, and it— it puts you into sort of a bell-shaped curve of the people that answer those questions like that— this is what we think you are. But on— on those small teams, you sort of evolve naturally into— into these roles. And once you kind of fill into that role, whether it's the D, the C, the I, the S, whatever it is, you— you feel comfortable there and you perform there in that particular category, and everybody else performs in their category, and as a group you make— you really meld and you make a good team.

Yeah. When a team really hits and it's really working, man, there is probably not— I mean, I can think some things that are better than that, but, um, it's pretty great, right? I mean, it's like, yeah, we're on fire here. Unstoppable. Like, what— what can't we do? We're going to take it down. We're going to do whatever it is that we need to do.

Everybody understands their role.

Yeah, I think that's the— that is a key point. Really knowing exactly what you know and the sequence of that, the timing. Hey, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? I'm doing this. I'm making this call. I'm doing whatever. Right.

And again, that's you— at least from a hostage rescue team perspective, that evolves naturally because of training over and over and over, you know, thousands of times of going in the door and and making this move or, you know, being the breacher or being the number three guy, the team leader. I mean, all those things sort of naturally come into play. And after all of this training, it just kind of flows. And it's funny because you— when you talk to— to guys on these teams and they go do an operation. Yeah, it just flowed. You know, ju— it just happened. It— it worked. Well, it worked because everybody was able to meld together and, you know, they trained so many times together that they all knew their area of responsibility and knew what they were supposed to do.

It just goes back to that old fast is slow, slow is fast. And you can just see it in the movement, right? Is just everything just moves and you can feel that when you're in it. It's just moving and it's moving in a way where it's like all coming together. You see it in business all the time. When you have a high functioning team, I think you've got a group of people who really are like— they're not missing any details.

Mhm.

That when— you know, when you're on it, like you're not missing any details, that you know that, hey, this handoff is happening and everything that needs to happen thereafter. You know, certainly from a CEO standpoint, I can say that I have been, um, in situations personally where that didn't happen. And there is nothing more frustrating than when you go back and say, "Hey, just double-checking, did you get this right?"

And then they didn't.

Yeah. And then you got to figure out, okay, how— you know, when I was younger, I think I was— I dealt with it differently than I do do today.

Well, you know, the thing on— on a team, like the way that I see it is you learn to rely on these team members and it takes time to develop that level of comfort that as a CEO or as a team leader or a member of the hostage rescue team, I know what the next guy's going to do because he's done it and I can count on him to do that, and therefore the next operation I don't have to question it. Maybe early on you wonder because you don't know. But after so many evolutions of training and and doing things, you know, you don't have to ask yourself. You don't question it. You know for sure it's going to happen the way it's supposed to happen. And that saves lives.

And that's the key, right? That's the key. Yeah. So Jeff, let's check in on those ketones. Did you feel anything from that?

I feel super focused.

But I don't know. I don't know if Jeff Harp super focused is good or bad. We might take a poll outside this little room here to find out.

Yeah. But I mean, like, you know, it's interesting, right?

Yeah. They call it the fourth fuel. And these ketones, like if you go into dietary ketosis where your body's not using glucose and now you're firing on— which comes from it, um, you know, adipose tissue, or, you know, your body's using fat, um, to produce dietary ketosis. Uh, you get into these super focused, hyper, you know, hyper capable states, uh, and without the crash. So caffeine, uh, you know, amplifies these things, um, and glucose, you know, like— you know, you— if you— if you sat down and you drank some sugar, right? Yeah. There was one guy talking about this recently that in your workouts— you've seen this before, right? People use an intra workout and they're basically drinking sugar, cluster dextrin, right in the— right at about the midpoint of their workout, right? Trying to refuel to get that. To me, I don't know. I have a blood, uh, sugar issue. I— if I put that stuff in my system, I'm messed up, right? So, it's kind of interesting to see how these really— we get— when we get— we're trained on this stuff. Holy smokes, dude. It starts to kick in and you're just like, I want more.

That's interesting.

It is.

Well, I'd like to try— what I'd like to do is— so I, you know, I do a five gram creatine, five gram glutamine. And what I normally do is I spike it with sugar.

You know, I— I'll take it and get it into the cell.

Yeah. I'll take it with water, more— I drink the, you know, pharmaceutical grade just powder. I don't take any flavor, any— it's just straight up. It's like drinking sand. And then I'll eat a small candy bar or something on the way to the gym. So, and I— right or wrong, it's worked for me.

And, um, you probably get that sugar spike that you're talking about. That's interesting. Well, the creatine— I mean, you know, if you take a look at what I've got in this bottle right here, uh, this is, uh, by NuBioAge. So inside of that is creatine, taurine, a bunch of other amino acids, and some forms of peptides that are basically in there. Then you've got, um, a product that they make also called alpha-ketoglutarate. Uh, so AKG+. And, um, that's just a scavenger and helps your metabol— you know, your, um, cells, the mitochondria in your cells actually produce more energy. So, more, uh, ATP. And then on top of that, I put in the SAT minerals, and that's going to give you the ability to fire off all of those things. We're looking for mind muscle connection on the— the lift, right? So, we're really getting in and really getting the push. Um, that particular combination just works really well for me. And I think, you know, again, I always go back to this notion of we are all n of one, right? What works for you— I mean, that may really work for you.

Yeah. There should be no judgment about, like, you know, like at the end of the day, if that's what's working for you, then awesome. And what I found works for me— we tried it the other day. We did some honey, uh, and trehalose cuz I didn't want to do just straight cluster dextrin. I think that's just too much. So, we used some honey water and some, uh, trehalose. And I have to tell you, it did turn on.

Did it?

I'm getting time, man. Yeah. We were like— but at the end of it, I was like, when I came out of it, I was like, ah, you know, I just don't feel as good.

Well, so the— I've read— and of course I'm no nutritionist or dietary expert, but I've obviously dieted quite a bit in my life, you know, with wrestling.

Oh, yeah.

But what I have— what I find is what the sugar— and maybe it's the processed sugar that causes it. You get up and then you kind of— you kind of crash down.

Yeah. You have this huge insulin response.

Yeah. And then it drops off. And the medical professionals probably know what that entire thing's about, but I think it's just— I recognize it. So, and I— there's also I think as we age we probably should stay away from the more processed sugar and even the— cuz I don't use sugar on anything. I use honey on everything, but it's sugar still.

Yeah. The thing that's interesting about the honey is that for us around here, um, we're dealing with— which I never had before, which is really strange, but all of a sudden I started dealing with these seasonal allergies.

Yep.

And, you know, the raw local honey is something that I've used.

Yep.

I do just get it from those hives that are out, you know— I mean, they're like individual people that you can go get the honey from. You pay a little more for it, but it's probably worth it. Raw, and you just do like a teaspoon, you know, and it— it basically fixes— I don't know how to explain it. It just works, you know. And, um, cuz before I was like— like, you know, just coughing up, start like feeling like it hard to breathe at night and stuff like that, which is really strange. But, um, yeah, it's amazing what you can do with nutrition and, uh, maybe next time we come back, we'll talk about nutrition and athletics and then, uh, and then the teams and how you guys geared up for that.

All right, sounds good.

Well, brother, so great to have you in, man. It's always— you know, I always— I don't know, I always feel like we just pick up right where we left off. It's just one of those things. It's, uh, great to see you and, um, you know, I really appreciate you coming back in to share your thoughts on these things. And, um, I look forward to seeing you again. I hope you'll just be coming regularly, whatever you ever need. Every year if you just show up and give us some insight, that would be great.

Perfect. I'm all for it.

Awesome, man.

Whatever— however I can help. Thank you.