Searching for the Truth: Saima Firdoos MD

When you're investing, and especially the most expensive thing that you're born with, the only thing they're going to take away with is your soul. So, make sure when you are at a point in your life when it's ending, you have enough reserve of your soul with you.

People are not connecting the way that they they could, and fear is stronger than love. Look at what is happening in the world. So many people are operating in fear.

The gift that I have is I really think about it a lot, and that's what I want to do with all of this, the the movie, the medicine, the knowledge that I have. I really want to create a village here because I feel that is what is missing.

Dr. Saima Firdoos, welcome in the Pathway to Peak Performance. It's so great to have you here in this episode. We'll try to cover the basics because really, what don't you do? That's that's really the question that we'll have to try to figure out today. Um, so welcome. It's just delighted to have you here.

Thank you so much, Jock. It's such a pleasure to be here, and I am so excited, and uh thank you so much for the amazing introduction.

Well, you are an amazing person. Um, so as you know, every guest on the show has a charity, and yours is Doctors Without Borders.

Love it. Such a great organization.

Absolutely. Yeah. Doing amazing work all over the world. Gosh, we could go on about them. All right, fantastic. All right, this show is sponsored by KetoneAid. So, you as a medical doctor are well familiar with uh ketones and the process of dietary ketosis. These are exogenous ketones.

Uh, this is the true ve ketone ester made by KetoneAid. Um, you can see that this has not been opened. All right. So, if you'd like to try it, uh, we'll take these two cups, the ones in the middle, and you can just pour the capfuls in for both of us. So, you just pop the top by just putting your finger through it. You don't have to peel it off. You can just pop it and then put those capfuls in.

Okay. How about, can I pour like all of it?

Uh, I wouldn't pour all of it. It's pretty powerful stuff.

Okay.

Yeah. Um, all right. So, here we go. Let's try it out, and then we're going to check in a few moments. Cheers.

Cheers.

Yeah, this is the K4 product, which is the kind of more heavy-duty one. They have another one. I just happen to be out of it. Um, all right.

It would be interesting because I can compare, because how I uh look at my concentration, and you know how I feel more, you know, like in sync when I'm doing my work. I do breath work and I do meditation. So, I will see if this uh takes me to the same uh level of consciousness. I—

I I somehow doubt it's going to get you where you go. Um, but you know, if there's anybody that was a good acid test you this with, it's you. Um, because you really do reach these incredible levels, which is some some of the stuff that we're going to talk about.

Absolutely. So the first thing is, uh, we could go all the way back in the origin story and and do all of that, but there's so much to cover, and I think we'll kind of give the listeners a background. I mean, you're at Harvard postdoc doing research, you're at Tufts, uh, in residency, the list goes on. You've done so many things. You're creating a film, you're involved in music, uh, and and you've come to this incredible realization about life that is pretty profound.

And it's just an amazing, you know, it's almost like, where do you start with this story? So I kind of want to turn it over to you and let you take us through sort of where are we, and and maybe we, maybe we sort of like go from self-actualization back down to, you know, air, water, food, shelter, um, as a as a way to start. I'm not sure. What do you think?

So you know, the short answer to your question, where are we?

Yes.

We are here. And that is my whole story, is to be in the moment, because what we do is when we live a life and we are going through, you know, ups and downs, we tend to stay either in the past or in the future, or always worrying about, oh, I want to reach to this level, I want to reach to that level. And what we really forget is, where are we now? What do I have now? What do I need to be thankful for?

And it it's like, because if we are not thankful for what we have, we would never be able to appreciate anything else that we're going to gain, and also we'll never be able to get over whatever we've lost in the journey. So that was kind of um my struggle, because I, when I was born, I had some circumstances which were not uh very normal for an average American, I would say, because, you know, your audience is mostly American, so I'm talking to them. But I had a vision that I can be this, and I believe every soul, every person at any age, they know who they are.

Even if a, if there's a child and you talk to a child, and they know, they always, they are thinking that they're smarter than us. In their head they're always smarter than us, and they know what they're doing. So that's what I had. I knew what I can achieve or what are um my abilities, and I knew that circumstances might not be enough for me, and I have to like somehow figure out to to to do something uh with my abilities.

I had no idea even that America exists or there's a country far, far away. It was some other force inside me that kept me going and kept me going. Um, to a point that, you know, I ended up, I did postdoc from Harvard, and I did my residency, um, I did actually internship in psychiatry as well, and residency, and then I was assistant professor with Tufts. And then actually I moved here, and then I became a chief medical officer with a nonprofit, not with Tufts. So that was really—

Yeah. Yeah.

But um, the most profound thing that happened in my life is uh the acknowledgment that life is not only about achieving the things. It's also about, um, you know, grounding yourself and telling yourself it's okay to not be something too. It's okay to also feel like, let me just take a breath, and if it ends tomorrow, I'm ready for it.

And I know it's a very, very hard thing to say, because when we are young and we are thriving and we have everything that we can just like achieve, and I was a go-getter. So I, for me to give up on something is impossible. Like, there's nothing that is impossible. I feel like I can just get everything. That's why, you know, if you look at my resume, I feel I can do this, I can do that. And it's not that I'm going to do it half-ass. I'm actually going to put all my energy, effort, and I know I can make it happen.

But there was a point when my health was uh kind of hit, because when you're working, putting your 100% all the time, all the time, you know, you're, it's like burning the candle at both ends, there's a, there comes a point where you, your body kind of crashes on you. And that is what happened to me. And that was the moment of realization for me. That was the first time, and I was in the moment thinking like, oh, I have no idea what's going to be in my future, because I don't even know if I have a future, you know. And if I keep on like thinking about my past, like, so what's, what's the point right now, you know? If I die tomorrow, what's going to happen to my soul?

And because I was a very, I think I'm, I think I am an intelligent person, and I was a researcher and a scholar, I wanted something more concrete to tell me what's going to happen to my soul. I mean, I, you know, you, we hear about heaven and hell and, you know, all that, but I just felt I need something more intelligent, something more uh to actually know what's going to happen to my soul. And uh, because at that point in my life, one thing I didn't have was, I was practicing certain things. I was raised in a certain religion that I grew kind of out of, uh, because I didn't want to believe things that doesn't correlate with my inner uh inner self.

You know, we always have something inside us telling us this is right, this is wrong. And if you're a truthful person, you always know, no, this can't be the truth. If there's a God, God won't tell you to do this. It's, it's a man that can tell you to do this. A god won't tell you to do this. So I had a lot of questions like that, and to a point that I felt like, you know what, I just, I just don't belong into maybe this, this religion you can call it.

But what happened with that, I also lost my connection with something which was divine in that religion that kept me grounded when I was young, and that kept me like focused, and, you know, that's how I reached to maybe um where I wanted to be in academics. But when I lost in my touch with that, I, you know, the bad part, I also lost touch with the good part of it, which was meditation, which was, you know, um kind of uh reaching a higher state uh by reciting certain kind of, you, uh, chapters from Quran, for example. So I stopped doing that. So I stopped getting the benefit of that too.

And then I was a hit at that point. I wanted something to hold on to, and I did not have anything because I didn't believe in it. And now I don't have anything as powerful to to really ground me and to, um, there's a feeling where when your heart is grounded and protected, and I didn't have that at that time. I just wanted to cry and scream and, you know, all that. So that time I started to look for something more meaningful and something that I can call like, oh, this is, this is some higher, you know, uh, being, or that I can connect to, and there's a, this is the way that I can connect to. So the second journey like started uh after I had this incredible realization that I have a lot of autoimmune diseases, and I, it was bad, and I thought I can die.

It's a really profound sort of journey, um, to have to contemplate one's own death. Oftentimes many people think about it along the way, but they don't. But they quickly close that door, because we live in this sort of illusion of, we're invincible and nothing like that's going to happen to me. People get cancer, but that's not me. All of these things.

And I'm sure in the world of health care, you know, we see these things where these diseases of decades are based on choices that people make along the way. I think along the lines what you're talking about is really true. The living in the past, the regret of the past brings forward chemicals that make us react in a way to what's happening in the present, and we then sort of trip out on the future and what does it mean? Am I good enough? And can I do these things? All of that. But that divine internal self that knows who you are. Uh, I think that's interesting to come to a place in time where you feel like you lost connection with maybe the the higher power, if you will. Um, and so tell me about your return to that and how you came to be connected to it again.

So um, I was born with a mother who was very, very spiritual and very, very like practicing um Muslim. She would stay up all night and, you know, do her meditation because she was also a single mother. And in my country, if you are a single and you're a woman and you're beautiful, there there only two categories. Either you could be, um, you don't have a good character, or you're very, very religious so nobody would bother you, or otherwise everybody, everyone would bother you because, you know, they think, oh, it's, you know, it's... Unfortunately this is how society is, u um, that's how I've felt growing up. So she became more religious so that nobody bothers her, nobody questions her why she's uh raising her kids uh on her own.

You know, I think that's interesting too because, um, just as a side note, like last night, my first Substack subscriber, right? Wow. My first paying Substack, you know, like somebody donate money to me uh for what I write. It's my mom.

When I think about her, I just, I I I feel her pain, and it just like... Yeah, it, it was very painful to think how she would have lived her life. So, a lot of me is her.

Yeah, it seems natural, right? That proximity to seeing that, and then, you know, that carries forward. I mean, we really are products of our um, of our parents, and um, and certainly the one that's the most influential on us is probably our mothers.

And very painful part was to to part from her and from her philosophy of religion.

That must have been really tough.

Yes.

When you have someone who's really in it and then you say this is not for me. Did that drive a wedge between the two of you, or how, how did that work?

I think spiritually we are very, very connected. Like, I will have a dream, it's so funny, and I will call her, and she will tell me the other part of the dream, and I think it's, it's very weird, and yeah, it happens.

It makes you realize that there's a lot more at play here.

Yeah.

Than, than this dimension of uh consciousness.

Because on a one-to-one level, whenever I talk, we never agree on any point anymore. Most of the point we dis- disagree on, because she has a set of beliefs that's her comfort zone, and she wants to believe in it because she has gotten something out of that, and for her that's enough, and she is, she is very scared to break that. For me, the first thing that I did was I broke that rules. I broke that shell that was protecting me apparently. And I was, that shell was not enough for me. So I had to break out of it.

But I think I was able to break out of that shell because she was there, because she provided me that spiritual realm that I was able to grow, or my soul was able to grow in that. So I respect that. But at the same time, I'm able to look at that now, and I can see that that was good for her. That was not good for me. I mean, that was not enough for me. So I stopped arguing with her about her beliefs anymore, because she's very grounded. She's very much at peace. So I don't have to necessarily disturb her.

Because I've, I will share a very beautiful story with you. Um, it's by uh Maulana Rumi. I don't know if you know about him. He's the most read poet in the world. So um, in his Masnavi, which is one of his books, um, he says that if somebody um uh tells you that there, there's an elephant in the room, and people have not seen the elephant before. So they are blindfolded. So, you know, he, they will send four people inside to actually feel the elephant and then describe what they've seen. So they're blindfolded.

They'll come, somebody will touch the, you know, the the trunk of the elephant, somebody will um, you know, touch the legs, and um, you know, different parts, whatever they can hold on to. And once they leave the room, they will ask them, how can you describe the elephant? So they will say, oh, it's like a, somebody will say it's like a column, u, so they will tell their experience, which is like a true experience, and they are so sure about it, 100% sure, because they touched it. So they would say it's, it's, you know, it's like a flat surface, the person who has touched it, you know. And somebody would say, "Oh, no, no, it's like a elongated," and they've touched it. So, they believe in it. They're not lying about it.

But now, one person that enters the room, and you, and he's not... You open the blindfold, and he goes and he see the whole elephant, and he will tell you, "Okay, yeah, elephant is like this too. Elephant has legs too. Uh, you know, uh, it is, this is he, it's that huge. This is the whole elephant." So that's how, that's what changed my whole philosophy about religions and how I look at religions and how I look at other people who are very grounded in their uh faith, because their truth is also truth.

This is the truth that they have uh uh, you know, experienced, but there's somebody who, that truth was not enough for that person. So he wanted to see the whole truth, and then there's a lot of struggle to to find that whole truth. But then you can see, okay, this person is right too, this person is right too, this person is right too, and I cannot force that person to see what I am seeing, because they will never believe me, even though I am also telling the truth and they also telling the truth. I know their truth, what they have experienced, because I have also experienced their uh truth. They won't be able to see my truth.

So they will tell me, "Oh, you, you are, you've lost your way now." That's what my mom tells me. She's, you lost your way. You're out of the, out of faith. You've lost your way. Kind of things that you're saying that, you know, it's not permitted at Islam, for example, because that is her version of Islam. That is what she knows about Islam.

So similarly, as somebody who is a Christian or who is a Jew or who is a Hindu, they are grounded in their own way, and they have tested, they have tasted the truth. So they would never deviate from their truth because they have tasted it. But somebody who has tested all of them would understand that they all are right. But it's like rainbow, you know. There's the color of light is colorless, but then they're all colors, different colors coming out of it.

And that is what my journey is, and I got into that because I, when I was very sick, and I was questioning, I always used to talk to God no matter what age I was. That was my best friend. I always have something you call Allah or God, or even if you don't believe in God, some kind of energy that is bigger than us. And I thought that's my best friend. I used to say, okay, you know what? When I'm alone, I will say I'm going to do this. I will, I will um, you know, get to medical school, and you have to help me. And, you know, I will, I will play games, and I will always like, I felt like there's another person or, or somebody playing with me.

So, but I got very sick. I was like, why did you do this to me? You know, why do I have to go through all these struggles to be here, you know? Um, and now I got married, and now they're telling me I can't have kids, and, you know, my whole life is kind of upside down, and why do I have to go through all this? I could have just stayed in Pakistan. I didn't have to do all this struggle, and now to know that, you know, I'm going to, I have all this disease. I can't even move. I couldn't even move my um arm to to change my clothes. And I had some dreams.

I used to have dreams in, in um when I was young too, but I never really, they were simple dreams. They were never this profound. And I, I started, I had a very profound dream, and some message telling me that, find me and you'll find your cure. And it was very, I I I can't describe it. It was very, you know, some dreams you, you wake up and you know that they are different than, than what you've been feeling.

So I didn't pay attention. I was very heartbroken, and I was like, you know, this is nothing. And I was like, you know what, I won't take it even if you give me this, because I was getting something in my dream, and I was like, I'm, I don't want to take it. I won't take it because I have so much pain, and you know. And then I had the dream again that the pain is my blessing. You will find me through the pain. So don't cry over the pain. Stop crying. And it happens a lot of times.

And then I was like, maybe, because I also was thinking maybe I still, like, it's my ego talking to me. It's my ego talking to me that, oh, I'm so special that I will have a dream, I'll have a, you know, father. So it's very interesting, like, I, I can quickly ground my, I think I have the ability to ground myself and feel like I'm nothing. I'm not like, you know, like saying that, oh, I'm this and that. So I, I was like, you know what, it's just... I ignored it, but it came again and again.

So I left my job. I, I realized that, you know, I won't be able to even perform my work because of my health condition, that I won't be able to work full-time. So um, I started on a, you know, we, we, we would, we were trying to be cool about things and take it easy, me and my husband, you met him too. Um, he's a rapper, so he was rapping about a song, and we said, okay, let's do, let's make a song. And I was, okay, I'll put some um poetry in it.

So I um, I chose a poet which I, you know, it's, I used to read uh when I was young, and, and I never liked that poet because he became very, he's a very philosopher, and I thought he's a poet that is used by religious people to quote a lot of things. So I was like, but I like the poem. It says, um... It's like an Urdu poetry.

So what it means, that beyond the stars there are many um uh universes, beyond the stars. And even in the, in the, on the way of ishq, ishq is the ultimate um love for divine, uh, there are many more um stages in the divine love yet. So I love that poem. I don't know why, I always loved that. So I was, okay. Uh, because Ellie was rapping about Mars, so it kind of rhymed with it, and the, you know, the, this, the travel, space travel, time travel, and he's talking about parallel universe. I was like, let's mix these two together, and at that point came in my dream. Uh, so before I actually put this, um, uh, poem, we, he was rapping and I was, um, you know, I was, maybe I should do some poetry. He came in my dream. I was like, put my poem in your, uh, song. And I was like, why would I put his poem in a song, because I don't really like him. And then I was like, okay, let's see, let me do some research, and I found this, uh, it actually goes very well with, but also it'll be cool. So we created a song, Mgles in Mars. Um, it's very interesting.

And then I was interested in knowing the life story of this poet, because he came in my dream. I was like, I don't like him, and I want to know who he is, and, you know, what is his life story. And I, um, ordered his autobio biography, and in that book, um, he says, if you can't find truth in this world, and if you can't find a single person who can tell you the what is the truth, then go to Maulana Rumi, he will still tell you what it is. So is a poet, but is also a Sufi saint, so, and is in Konya, in, uh, Turkey.

So it was COVID when I read that, and I was like, let's go to Turkey. I have to go to Turkey. I have to, like, you know, I resigned for my job now. I was like, I have to go, I have to go travel, I have to find the truth, because I'm getting the dream. So I have nothing to lose, because I don't know how much time I have, and if that's something that speaks to my soul and I want to do this, so let's be on that journey. And I'm very thankful to my husband. He was, uh, sweet enough, kind enough, and loved me enough that he was, okay, let's go.

It was COVID and, um, everything was shutting down, but we were just, like, traveling and going, going. And, um, we went to Konya, and that is how it started. And I, and he was right about it. I think it all started with Maulana. Some things happened that grounded me, that that connected me to him, some super, whatever you can call it. And that was the first, uh, point of this journey.

Wow. So first point, uh, you're sort of in distress, seeking something more solid, if you will, more, more scientific, something that's like has mass, and you come to this place where you find Rumi, and, uh, you have this travel to Turkey. And then what happens?

So now we are in Turkey and it's COVID. And, um, there's nobody there. Konya is not like Istanbul. It's like a very kind of isolated part of Turkey. And, um, hotels are empty. Uh, you know, nobody speaks English. And I'm there and, um, I'm sitting in the tomb and I'm like, I'm so stupid. What am I doing here? He's just a poet, and I'm here, and I brought my husband, and it's COVID, and, you know, like, what am I going to get out of here?

And, um, I asked a few questions in my own head, like, I wish I could meet some of his descendants, or I can know more of his philosophy. I have not read any of his books by then, and a lot of other questions. I was sitting in the tomb and I'm asking for myself, and Ali was, uh, my husband was in the hotel lobby, and because the hotel was empty, he was talking to the manager, because manager was also like, he has nothing to do. So they were just chit-chatting, and, um, uh, I went in and I, uh, he said, the manager said, oh, I know a girl, she looks just like you. She's from Pakistan, but she lives in London, and she couldn't come because of, uh, the COVID, and the flights from London were kind of not operating to Turkey at that time, and let me FaceTime her.

So she, so he puts her on FaceTime, and I didn't know the girl. She looked, she actually looked like me quite a bit, and she started to just say randomly all the things, all the questions that I had inside the tomb. She just started, like, answering everything, to a point that I started crying. Like, everything that I have doubts about, like, why am I here, why can't I find somebody who can show me around. He was like, I'll introduce you to a driver, he speaks English, he'll take you to all the places, he'll take, you know, even he'll take, he took us to the cook of Maulana Rumi. It was incredible. Um, and I was like, I don't know what chapter, if I, what should I read from Quran. He said, oh, you should read this chapter, this was his favorite. Oh, you should read, uh, you should go meet his descendant, there's a 22nd descendant.

And I was like, wow. Then we actually went and we met the 22nd descendant of Maulana Rumi, and, um, I also have a conversation actually available on a small YouTube link, and I can give it to you, my conversation with her. Um, I was covering my head. I was like, oh, it's Maulana, and, you know, like. But when I went to meet her, she was like, she was not even covering, and she had hair. I was like, a, she's a female descendant. Because in my country we have Sufi shrines, and they're all heavily guarded by men, and most of the Sufi shrines, they don't even allow women to enter. It's written specifically, uh, women not allow allowed to enter.

One thing I noticed in Maulana's tomb is, like, everybody is welcome. Even people are wearing skirts, they're more, they're welcome. Uh, and, and I was like, this is different than what I've known about Sufi. So what kind of a Sufi is this? And, oh wow, his descendant is a female. Oh wow. And she's not even covering her head. So, it was interesting. But, and she talks, and I was like, um, what has he written about? And because he's a poet of love, and he only talks about love. He has nothing to do with Islam, because Islam is not love. And she's like, no, I think whatever he's written is all about Islam, and it's all about, it's from Quran. And I kind of laughed at it in my, in my own heart. I was like, I don't believe this.

And then, but, but she was a kind, as sweet as person. Very, very sweet. She gave me her own book that she's written, and, you know, we, uh, departed. But then a lot of other things happened. There was a girl, I went out, I was just walking in the streets, and most of the shops were closed. Very little sweet girl with blue eyes, eight, nine years old, and she came to me and she was speaking Arabic, and she was like, um, give me money. And I didn't understand, because I didn't have my phone with me, and even Google Translate was not that good, I think, at that time.

And I was like, I don't have money. And she was like, no, you have money, you have to. I was like, right now I don't have, I didn't even have my wallet with me, because, um, I was just walking randomly. I was like, I'm going to, uh, I don't have money. And I was not very keen on giving her money either, and she was not a beggar. She was coming out of a butcher shop. She had meat in her hand, and I dismissed her. And then I walked, like, 10, almost 10 minutes from Rumi to Shams.

So Shams was the lover or a companion of, uh, Maulana, uh, who kind of helped him attain this level of, u, spirituality so that he was able to write poetry. So if it was not for Shams, Rumi wouldn't have been able to write the poetry. So Shams was a dervish, and dervish is somebody who has attained a different kind of knowledge from, from divine. And that's when, because Rumi was an Islamic scholar, and Shams went up to him and I said, like, no, this is not the whole truth. If you want to see the whole truth, you have to behave like me, come to me. So Rumi, he was like very, very strictly rules, regulation of Islam, and this, this, this guy is like all crazy. He came in his life, and he was like, no, there's more to it, if you want to seek, come to me.

And then he was, somehow he disappeared. The legend has it that maybe he was disappeared because of Rumi's, uh, uh, sons, because they were not happy with their connection, because Rumi was very revered in, in Turkey, and very revered with Seljuk Empire and all this. And this was kind of tarnishing his reputation, uh, because they might be thinking that they are, you know, in love, and there were two men, and, oh, what is this. And I don't know what happened at that time, but the, somehow he was vanished from that, uh, place where was. And after he departed, either he was killed or he left himself, Rumi started to write after that, longing for him, you know, for his love.

And because when you are connected, uh, uh, divinely, then there's, there's no better love than that. It's not about a human love, it becomes something else. Because if you are really seeking something larger than life, and somebody's telling you that, you just don't want to talk to anyone else, because you just want to get more and more and more, because it's like a, it's, there's so much to, to gain from that, uh, person. So he was longing for that, and, but that's what has given the world this most beautiful poetry.

So I went to Shams' tomb, and I told the girl, don't, I don't have money, and I went to Shams. I sit there for a long time, almost an hour maybe. I'm coming out, and she's standing there, and she was like, give me money. I was like, I just told you I don't have money. Why are you chasing me? How come you found that I'm a here now? And then I came home, and, you know, when I cried, and I was like, oh my god, maybe that girl. Because they tell me Shams is very, Shams is a crazy energy, and they both make you do random things, happens to you, and I never believed in it. I was like, maybe that girl was my test. I wish I could have given her some money. And I never gave her money, and I was like, "Oh, I wish I can find her."

So, we, we stayed there for, like, almost 7 days. Uh, I didn't find her again, and we left Konya. Um, and I was outside, um, almost like we drove, like, an hour, and, um, somebody called me from, uh, from my, uh, from Pakistan, and he was my, connected to me spiritually. He was like, "Oh, I wish you were there in Rumi's tomb, and if I could see the tomb, if you could go back." And I asked, um, Ali, can we please drive? He was like, "No, it's so bad. The topic is, I'm not going to go back right now." Um, we already, like, you know. And then he looked at me, I was like, "Maybe." And then he drove back.

And when he went to, uh, we went to Rumi's tomb, and then I was like, "I think I want to say goodbye to Shams once more time." Once more. So, can you please take me to Shams' tomb? I was like, "Okay." And he took me there. We were there. We spent, like, maybe 10, 15 minutes. And the moment we came out, the girl was standing there.

Oh my gosh.

And she was trying to tell me in a, in her way, that, I was like, "Okay, I give her some money." She's like, "No, I need a lot of money," because I think they were from Syria. They were refugees, and they, they were being evacuated. They had to leave that day, and she needed a lot of money. Um, but that was very interesting. If I wouldn't have come back, drove back, um, all the way, I wouldn't have found that girl. It was meant to be.

Yeah. Yeah. That was the, the divine force bringing you to the place that you needed to be, close the loop. Right.

So that was the, the beginning. So I, the beginning of me believing in something, something more, and I, I started liking this process. I started liking, I felt alive again. I felt like this is something I'm really enjoying, and, uh, the question, I forgot about the question that I had, this question, what is the truth? I just felt like, you know what, something is happening, and let me just enjoy the journey wherever it takes me.

So I went to Pakistan, and, uh, before that, when I was at, uh, Harvard, I had met somebody who was a Hindu, uh, from India, Punjab, Indian Punjab, and we were very good friends, and at one point we thought maybe we can get married. And my thing was that, oh, I'm a Muslim, and, you know, you have to convert, because I can't take you to my mother and tell her that I married a Hindu. He said, "Oh, I will convert. It's not an issue." But then, you know, we, we kind of discussed, and we realized there's no, there are two polar opposite religions. There's no convergence of Hindus and Muslim.

And we read a lot of scholars. I ordered a lot of books at that time, and nothing, like, kind of works, worked for us. Also because I was, at that time I didn't know about Islam, and I don't think he knew about Hinduism, because what I know now is, is very profound, and now I have a different take on that, what I felt at that time, that, oh, they can't be together and all that. So I was very skeptical to, I was not believing in Islam, but I was also very skeptical about believing in any other religion.

So I went to Pakistan, and there was a trip going to northern areas of Pakistan, and Pakistan is, it's beautiful scenery in northern areas, and we wanted to go, me, and I was like, oh, we'll join them. It's a yoga retreat, and, okay, fine, yoga, we do yoga, it's, I never look at it as something anti-religion or anything. But we went on a yoga retreat, and that's where, for the first time, I had the breathwork that I was talking about. It was not only yoga retreat, it was a kriya retreat, where they teach you breathwork. And I did it for, you know, you do it for, like, 30, almost 30, 35 minutes, where you do, uh, transition from slow breathing into heavy breathing, and, um, different techniques of breathing.

And, um, there was the first time I chanted om, you know, I chanted something other than Allah, you know, and I chanted some other Hindu words, like soham, um, that means I'm that, uh, and I chanted that, and I didn't feel bad about it. I didn't feel that, oh, I'm going to lose whatever, anything. Um, and there was the first time, um, I felt something different that I never felt in my, because I have never done meditation in my life. I realize, like, praying namaz was different, because, like, prayer, the Muslim prayer, five times a day. I never prayed five times a day, but whenever I prayed, it's like, you know, you're doing an act. It's very similar to namaz, actually.

It's very, almost the poses are very similar. You know, you touch different points. It's so, um, interesting how similar they are. So you're always thinking about, okay, what, what next pose I have to do, for next pose. And then, you know, when, and you sit in, um, dua, then you pray and all this. But you don't do breathing, or you don't do breathwork prior to that. So this was a whole ball game.

I don't want to talk about things, I want to experience them, and then I want to see what have I actually felt, and that's when I can describe it, and I can make a rule for me. Okay, I won't do it again. Okay, I, it's not for me, or I can compare it with something else. So that was the best natural high I've felt in my life. For the first time, I think the first time hit me very hard. The first time the breathing was like, "Ooh, I felt something different."

And, um, then, you know, I came back, and, uh, one of my, um, uh, people who I was connected to, um, spirit. I was 16, and my mother took me to a Sufi shrine, and I was initiated in a Sufi silsila, we call it. Like, there are a lot of, um, Sufis who migrated from, especially from Iraq, Iran region, and they went to, um, India, uh, many centuries ago. So India was, uh, all Hindu at that time, and then these saints, they went and they, they preached, and some people became Muslims, or they became Sufi, and, you know, all that. Uh, Sufi is very much, they call themselves Muslim, they are, they think they, they're very much Muslim only. But now that I'm learning more and more and more about it, I, I feel I am, I have a different theory about all of it.

So I was initiated in a Sufi silsila, because my father has been following it, my grandmother has been. So it's like it goes with the chain of, uh, inheritance, like it's like almost inheritance, and you have to go to that. It's like saints. So Sufis are saints, you know. It's like, if, if you're familiar with Christianity, that's, that's what it is. So I was initiated there. So that person was stressing me, go to Makkah, and go to Saudi Arabia, and you will, don't reject Islam, reconnect with it.

And I was rejecting it because a lot of things in Islam, from the beginning, I never liked how, how women are generally, like, you know. Um, I never wanted to, for example, cover my head. That was my thing. I was in Pakistan, even when I was, like, in my fourth grade, that was the first time, like, my brother was telling me, oh, you know, you know, you at an age that you should cover your head. I was like, no, I would never cover my head. And I never wanted to. I did not know about sexuality or anything, I just didn't feel like it's, it's for me.

And, uh, so a lot of things like that, I never wanted to believe those things, and when they'll tell me it's in Quran, I never wanted to read Quran. So all my life I read Quran, uh, the thing that I was telling you, that I also felt that they benefits of it. I hardly read it with meanings. I didn't even know what is in Quran, because it's in Arabic, and my language was not Arabic. Uh, I speak Urdu in Pakistan. So we have a book which is very revered. It's sitting on a shelf on the top. You can't put it down, and we read from Arabic verses.

Uh, I've remembered the Arabic verses, but I don't know what is in the Arabic, uh, what is the meaning of this. But I decided, because I'm, I'm used to, so I'll just recite it. Recite it, and I will feel certain way, I feel certain power, but I don't know what is written in it. And when they have translated it in Urdu, they have also added, like, bracket to explain it, and the brackets, they have done a lot of damage. Because now the, whoever, it's always a man translating it, and it's always a man, whoever, he wants to add, he will add, you know. So the bracket thing is not divine, but even if you say that, oh, whatever Arabic is divine, the translation or the explanation is not divine.

There's a lot of inclusion and distortion of the message when you translate it from one language to another. Like, for example, nowadays AI is doing a lot of translation, and, you know, and when you see, uh, it's very convenient, but at the same time, sometimes the whole message is not there, or even if you change a little bit, if you add a little bit, it change, it can change the whole scenario. Like, uh, for example, you know, George Orwell, in one of his books, he's written that, you know, if they say, uh, pigs cannot, uh, uh, pigs are not allowed to sleep on beds, so they will say, uh, cherry, they are not allowed to sleep from 9 to time. So, you know, if you add a little bit, you actually changing the whole scenario.

And that is what has happened to, I think, the version that is in my country, and especially in terms of women. Because what I hear is, oh, you're allowed to marry four women, always have to cover, and a lot of other things I never. And also, you know, there, there are some verses that say you can slap a woman and all this. And so I never read Quran myself. If I never put an effort, even though I became a doctor, but I never put an effort to actually understand what is it, because I was, the idea of what I'm going to find scared me.

Mhm.

The idea that I'm going to find something that I'm not, that's not going to connect to me, and I will, it'll be like a sin for me not to follow it now. It kept me away from understanding it or reading the meaning. So I never really connected with the book, other than what I was chanting, um, in my prayers, or whatever I remember, or whatever my, my mother will force me to recite a chapter every Friday, and I will do it because it gave me peace.

So there's a chapter in Quran which is very interesting. It is, now I feel it is the most important chapter in Quran, because it talks about other religions, and it somehow connects everyone else. Like, it, it connects Judaism, it connects Christianity, and it, interestingly, it connects Hinduism. But at that time I didn't know. I was like, oh, these are stories from previous prophets, why do I have to read it every Friday? But I even never really, uh, put an effort to what, what it is.

And, you know, who became the, who becomes the scholar, uh, in our country? When the most intelligent, uh, student or, or ch, child will become a doctor or engineer, and anyone who could not get admission anywhere will become Islamic study, Islamic scholar. So you already have a mind that is not very intelligent gone into a certain discipline, and then that person becomes a cleric, and that person becomes somebody who will tell you, oh, this is what is right and this is what is wrong, and you have to follow it, because then it becomes, um, you know, a law.

If we were to take the path to being a doctor, you have a Hippocratic oath, right?

Yes.

So here we have a book that is interpreted, and there's no guidance to say one way, it's that how that cleric is interpreting it in that moment. This is why we can have all different colors of, uh, Islam, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. The same thing, you know, could be true, said of Christianity. I mean, the reality is you take something that's Greek, translated down into Hebrew, and then it's gone through all different sorts of re, revisions. You have the Ethiopian Bible, where there's many books that are cut from it, uh, and used, you know, in the Roman version of the Bible, uh, over many, many years, and time has changed. So your point, you know, is something I've contemplated many times myself, around, hm, this seems like this is the version of that is, but what really was there before that? And it's difficult to know one way or the other.

What I think is kind of interesting about all of it is that at its core, um, you know, it's, it's, it's preaching a message of peace and love. Um, and so that's, that's something that is good. You know, religion is obviously a tough one. It's, it's not easy.

And that is what is becoming my life, actually, and it is not one religion, it is all religions. So the, the moment I question, you know, the Quran and interpretation of Quran, um, and I started understanding what went, that doesn't speak to me, and what is it that speaks to me. I also started understanding other religions somehow, and it is the most interesting part is that till my heart is not open for that specific religion, I will never get connected to the scripture of that religion. And I never bought a scripture from any other religion. When my heart is open, somebody will hand it to me. I will get it, uh, for example, I'll tell you.

Um, one Friday I was reciting the same chapter of Quran that I still recited most of the Fridays. I try to do it because now I have understood the deeper meaning, but that's another, you need a whole podcast. I'm actually making a movie just because of that chapter. Yeah. So I have a feeling that I'm going to get something very profound, like I, sometimes you feel like it's, it's going to rain, you know it's going to rain. So my friend, um, my neighbor actually, she's my best friend here in Tiburon. And we were, we walked together and he was like, "I'm going to get something. I don't know what it is."

And um, we were walking, you know, there's a bird sanctuary. Um, we were passing through there and there was a, there was a Bible sitting out there. And I don't see Bible there all the time. I've been living here for many years. So I was like, "This is for me." She was like, "No, people leave it here all the time." I was like, "I don't think so. I think it's for me."

So, I took, uh, I took that Bible home and I knew that, um, it's about time that I, I read it, and because I think, um, I'm connected to Jesus. I, I am connected with Jesus and Mary actually in a very, very, uh, strong way. Uh, and I was like, yeah. And then same happened with, um, Hinduism. It's a very, it's a very interesting thing, and it's a sad thing, because the program that I went to for my training, I don't know if you've heard of, um, Deepak Chopra.

So he, he got, he got his training from the same program, and when I came from Pakistan, um, you know, uh, I was writing, I also did like two years of, um, TV in Pakistan. I was on national TV doing healthcare shows, so I used to tell people I'm the bakra of Pakistan without knowing more about him, you know. And his brother was dean for Harvard Medical School, and he met me once, and um, the moment he saw me he was like, um, I told him, you know what, this is what I write in my personal statement, because they, you know. And he's like, he asked his wife, uh, his wife's name is Amita. I was like, "Amita, come here, we adopting this girl."

And he actually, the family actually were very like, you know, uh, kind and nice to me, the brother's family, and his wife is actually very, very spiritual. Despite whatever, I don't want to get into, I never met Deepak, so I never read his books too. I couldn't connect with him. I always felt when I'm listening to him it's, it's more of hypnosis. Um, he repeats the same thing again and again and it's like, so I never really truly connected with him. But the message that he has is phenomenal, because it's all ancient Vedic, uh, philosophy.

So what he's telling people, the message is not wrong. The person can be wrong, and what he did. But his, but the wife of the brother, I went to their home and I was not sure if I'm, if I'm looking for something, but she gave me a book of Upanishad, which is a translation of, uh, the, you know, Upanishad, and I never bought it. So when I had that book, and it's so interesting, I was alone in interpreting Quran. What I felt I had interpreted, I felt that Rumi has interpreted the same way, or he has found the same thing that I have found. But till I read Upanishad, I was like, aha, this is the same thing that is written there. So it's not in my head. It is somewhere in some ancient text which is written so many years ago, and it's written by the same author.

So then I realized that the Hindu phil-, Hindu scriptures, the scriptures and the Muslim scripture and the Bible scripture, the author is the same. It's just, as you said, the things that are good are always good. The things that are bad are always bad. We don't want to do the right things. None of us, none of the Muslims, none of the Christians or Jews, most, well, mostly we don't want to talk about the right thing.

We don't want to, like, for example, what happened at Cornell University, nowadays everybody's talking about it. It is wrong in Islam. It is wrong in Christianity. It is wrong in Judaism. It is wrong in Hinduism. All the texts, all the scriptures talk about this. You cannot evade a boundary of a woman, and you cannot, none of the religion tells you. So what we debate about things is, oh, useless things. That's why we kind of, you know, you know, it's like when you're telling ChatGPT to create something, you ask so many question, you know, you bombarded with so much like that, it kind of freezes and it cannot give you any answer. That's what we doing to religions and scriptures. And unfortunately, with, with religions and scriptures, we don't have prompt engineering, right?

Yeah, right.

When we can actually, we are focusing on so much useless things that the useful things are somehow still there, hidden. But there, even if you, because it's a divine word, even if it's translated and translated again and it's been centuries and centuries, anyone who is looking for the truth will find the truth from their own scripture.

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It's really interesting. Um, and I don't want to say who these people are, but they are close to me. Um, one from one religion and one from another religion which is a branch off to the other, sort of came to a spiritual understanding of sort of how they saw things, similar to what you're describing, and felt like there was more. And I wonder, you know, a lot of people sort of, you mentioned Deepak Chopra and sort of the hypnosis, so the hypnotic effect of the way that he communicates, uh, and there are lots of charismatic people that are like that. And you see this sort of, you know, dive into this charismatic sort of like repetition. Uh, there's a thing in hypnosis or in, uh, mind control. I'm sure you've read all about it, but the preachers role, right?

Yes.

And this notion of people going in, and the deeper that you get into it, the more you're in it and the more you're in it. And this is where cults emerge from.

Yes.

Um, it's amazing to go on a journey like the one that you've been on. Coming from a place where you're feeling like, hey, I, tomorrow it could be it. You know, I, we only have today. So you, you were able to, past is there, is present, but I'm living in the, in, in the present. The future is unknown. Um, and so through all of that to where you come to today. You're doing so many different things. You had this incredible career, and today you're focused on creating a film. Uh, you also mentor people in startups.

Um, you, you're involved in just a lot of different things. Tell me about where you are in your sort of journey. What's sort of next for you? I, I imagine you're still having this conversation with that power. Um, and I'm curious, where, where is it all headed in, in your mind? What are you asking for? Where are you going?

I think it's, uh, I just want to heal people, and I heal, I want to heal the world. And you just mentioned a dimension. I feel there is a portion of us, like a portion of medicine that can deal with physical ailments, and there is mental, there are mental ailments, but there, then there are diseases of souls. And I felt like a lot of the diseases are manifestations of diseases of your soul. So I want to talk about that. I want people to understand that how they corrupt their soul.

Because, you know, I feel like it's, it's like an entity. Uh, you are born with certain currency, and the currency is your soul, your body, your mind. And while you navigate through your life, you give away this currency to get something, uh, in return, you know. It's like a barter. I feel like life is a barter trade. You're giving, give away your soul sometimes to give something more, some more money. You're giving, give away your body, because if you're a physician, you, you get working extra hours. I'm going to give away my rest, my body, so that I can get more money.

End of the day, we all are craving to be rich or famous or something, but we also giving away a, the package that we came in with. We're giving away that. So I want people to invest wisely, you know, when you're investing. And especially the most expensive thing that you're born with, the only thing they're going to take away with is your soul. So make sure when you are at a point in your life when it's ending, you have enough reserve of your soul with you.

Yeah, that's deep.

Uh, and that is what I'm trying to achieve through every single thing that I'm doing. A part of it is the movie, because I feel cinema is, uh, I am inspired by cinema. So when I was young, I wanted to do the movie because I was inspired by Hindi movies, and I used to dance, and a part of my life is dance. It's dancing. And a part of the reason I wanted to run away from religion is like, it kind of for- tells you, oh, it's forbidden to dance, and my whole life is about dance.

And what has happened in my country, instead of acknowledging how divine dance is, like the proper dance, the pure dance, you know, in Hinduism the dance was actually, you used to only go to temple and that's where you're going to dance in front of the deities. But then with invasion and all this, what changed was that dance came into the court and then became the courtesans, and that's how the dance got corrupted. And now, you know, the kind of vulgarity that comes with dance. It is also, uh, in Pakistan they, they, they don't allow you to dance, but then there are, uh, stage, uh, plays where they, there's varants going on, and it's, it's a rotten culture.

And I feel like people need to reconnect with the divine through all these physical movements where they're dancing, but in purity, you know. Um, and then they're eating pure food, which is like pure for, and it is cooked with pure intentions. And then, you know, as you said, the most important thing is the social, social circle. So in this, um, for example, take an example of Tiburon. How many people interact with each other? It's a very lonely, uh, one thing we realize, it's a very slow, lonely town, you know.

I can say firsthand, having grown up in Belvedere, um, that there was a different time. This place was not as populated as it is now, and as a matter of fact, all the hills that you see into were empty. So I can remember just being a little kid, like we're talking, like, you know, a, my first memories, you know, like year and a half, two years old, and going to Angel Island and looking back, and there's, you know, this, it's just a totally different landscape. Over time people have come here, and the c-, and as people come, culture changes. There was a time when things felt far more open and people were connecting with one another and there were lots of parties, and um, didn't mean that everybody always got along. I'm sure there were, you know, issues along the way, but you know, personalities being what they are.

Um, but this is an interesting place in that you have so many people who have so much going on that by the time they get, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. You're an extrovert and you still want to keep going after you've had this incredible week of non-stop activity and interaction, or you're an introvert and you're just collapsing into bed and you just, I need my time by myself. People are not connecting, I think, the way that they, they could. It might be a c-, a culture of a competitive culture, a culture of one-upping one another. Um, but maybe it's like physics, right? The pendulum swings both ways. It just has to come back to some, some other

I think there's another, uh, factor, which is fear.

Yeah.

So many people are operating in fear, and fear is stronger than love. Look at what is happening in the world and why people are hating, uh, you know, one country is hating the other country, one religion is hating the other c-, uh, other religion. It is because, uh, fear drives a lot of, uh, wars, and um, understanding is the only thing that eliminates fear.

Um, not to get too, you know, off on the philosophy side of things, but I think that notion of needing to be right. Right. If you threaten my ability to maintain my, what sustains me, then that creates a fear of you. You're different than I am, so I can't communicate with you. Which in fact is the, is the polar opposite.

Absolutely.

If, if you've got something that is different, it doesn't mean that we have to agree. But I do really feel that I need to hear where you're coming from and understand exactly what, what motivates you. What are your thoughts? Because then you're, then you're open to hearing new ideas, or at least appreciating that person for who they are. And I don't know, it seems like it's the most dangerous time then.

I 100% agree with you.

Yeah.

And mostly in terms of, you know, isolation and mental, and that gives rise to the diseases that I was saying. Mental health illnesses, uh, are on top, and then, um, you know, a lot of autoimmune diseases are happening, uh, especially after COVID. There's, you know, uh, this is happening more and more. The isolation happened after COVID more and more. Uh, there's a lot of anxiety. Even if you reach a certain point in your career, then you're more anxious that, oh, this is going to go away, oh, somebody's doing better than me. If, if I'm a billionaire, someone else is going to be a billionaire and more than, you know, it's never ending.

Yeah. It's so funny, because I was just talking about this, or I remember when a quarter of a billion dollars was like, "Wow, quarter of a billion dollars, right?" And then it was like, "Oh, you're in the B club."

Yeah.

The, you know, you're a billionaire. And now it's like, it just seems, it's almost insane, and the disparities that we have. You know, it's amazing in this country, right, the United States of America, that we have people that are go home hungry every night, and the, the resources that we have to provide help to, um, to people here in the country. Um, it's s-, it's just heartbreaking.

It is everywhere. I think the, in the world, this is the disparity is actually exists in every single country. There elites in every country that takes up most of the resources, and then there are poor people. Um, but what is really great about America, and that's what I was actually discussing with my husband, is if you are good and if you're doing something good, you will find people who appreciate the good much more here than any, anywhere else in the world. There's good and bad, but the people who are actually living their life in a correct way, and they would see you and they would understand you, is not, I, I think the proportion of it's, it's higher in, in US.

You know, it's interesting too, isn't it? When you meet people, you have that instant hit, that instant feeling. It's like an energetic thing. It's, uh, you just know, right? Is this, like, is this somebody that I would want to spend time with or not?

It's an energetic projection. It also comes with, uh, time. Uh, it also comes with how much, uh, your soul is aware. So, it's like, uh, it's like going to a gym. So if you go to a gym and you are exercising and you, you have a muscle memory, so you, you know, you're kind of, um, you build up your muscle. The more you do it, the more, you know, your, your, your body is kind of like, you know, showing it.

Similarly is with your soul. If, if you are doing certain kind of things, um, if you're a good person and you are also doing some kind of practices or, or anything to help your soul, it will grow and you will be able, you'll be more realized soul, and you'll be able to understand what the other soul is. So the aura you create, it, it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger, and it helps you see through people, and that's what connects you to other people.

Yeah. It's almost frightening in some ways. Right. So let's, we've talked a lot about the divine and the journey and all of that. Let's talk about some things that are happening today. Um, we live in a community, or in an area, this is, uh, sort of the mecca, if you will, of

Absolutely.

startup innovation culture. We've seen it for generations, and we are at the height of, you know, I, I thought back in the dot-com days we're like, well, it's never going to be any bigger than this. It's just going to be, you know, this is it. And, you know, of course, now, you know, time went on from that, and that was many years ago. Um, and here we are today. Uh, and there's a, a lot of stuff coming out about, uh, AI is, we have a lot of questions, but um, long story short is you're involved with Orbit.

Yes.

And you mentor. One of the things I try to make sure happens in this show, this is, is an, I, is really geared for people to reach their peak performance, uh, which, you know, sometimes is just a level of sustainability, right? Something you, you know, you got level up and then hit some sort of period of time, and then you're looking for the next level up. You know, continuous, or, uh, I think Tony Robbins put it as CANI, constant and never ending improvement, which comes out of Kaizen, which comes from principles that basically would just, I mean, Charlie Munger said it, Warren Buffett said, I mean, all sorts of people have said it, right? The million people, it's like, hey, just 1% adds up to a whole bunch of something.

When we look at young people who are in a position now more than ever, even like 10 years ago there was a wave in health tech where there were a lot of young, um, CEOs. Now today we see these people who are CEOs are, they're starting their stuff and they're getting funding, and I wonder what you, what your thoughts are around the, the exact thing that you talked about, which is the trading of, of time for your health. Because back in my day, um, you know, sort of a badge of honor, you know, that sort of I'll sleep when I'm dead kind of thought process, which is just absolutely without a doubt unhealthy. Um, and you know, all the air travel, the hotel rooms, the non-stop go, go, go, it's not sustainable.

How do you see, uh, young people today? It seems like they're far more interested in health and staying in shape and partitioning their time in a way, or, or maybe organizing their time in a way that allows for that, uh, in a way that wasn't there previously. Maybe they learned from other people. What, what are your thoughts around this young generation?

I feel they're more wiser, uh, and they have more, uh, ability to break through, through the previous patterns. Like, we were very much kind of stuck, and we had to really think a lot about, oh, I have to break through of this old pattern and, you know, think in a new way. They're already there. They don't, they know this is right, this is wrong. Um, I think the, uh, somebody was telling me, like, uh, they are less into drinking, but, uh, my, my fear is that they will go more into drugs, because that again gives them the something more larger than life, and then in a moment, you know, they can. So, uh, that is my fear with this generation.

I feel they need a little bit more grounding, but they are much more, um, like they're, I think they're risk-takers, and they, they, they're willing to, like, explore, explore the truth, uh, earlier than what we were. We were very hesitant to, to, like, look into something new, and they are like always looking for something new. So I think they are the, um, they are very vulnerable at, at the same time. They're also, uh, very easy to ground. I think if they understand it, they will believe in it and they will do. Um, so they need to have good role models.

As you were saying, this is coming through, is it's like it's all leadership.

Yeah. You know, like I, I look at Elon Musk and I don't see his trillions. I see like, oh my god, I wish I can sit with him and I can tell him to lose a little bit of weight. I should give him this advice, you know, to, to, you're not making it to Mars, dude. You know, because I feel that he doesn't sleep. He doesn't sleep much. Uh, and we needed him because he did so much for the world and whatever he's doing. But um, I don't know where, where he is in terms of his mental health, um, and his, uh, spiritual health. Uh, so that worries me, and everyone who is following him, uh, it worries me, because he is a role model. He is out there and everybody wants to be like him. We see this sort of um absolute power and absolute um you know like the with with money, um mass amounts of money and mass amounts of power, it totally changes people. People who start off with these great intentions, incredible beliefs. If you look at Elon early on, you know, we can see him in interviews talking about um his heroes basically turning him away and thwarting him and basically saying, you know, no. And it was crushing to him. Uh I think in that way, some ways that shaped him into the person that he is today.

So, it's sort of like, well, the hell with all of you. I'm going to do whatever it is that I want to do and I'm going to no matter what I'll show you. And he's convicted in a way that and he's been that way all the way since Stanford, right? I mean, he was like just work work. He and his brother in the office just they didn't have an apartment. They just lived in the office and worked and worked and worked and worked and worked. He's an incredible guy. I mean, he's changed the world.

So, of course, you know, he's uh awesome, but um I think if he's a role model for every person and everybody everybody wants to be like him, that would be difficult. The hard part about that is like, you know, there are only so many Elon Musk, right?

Yeah.

Right. And that's all that's just going to be the truth. I mean, we talk about disparities and the elites and the lower end and we talk about uh there are just certain ranges of people and I guess society in some way, shape or form needs them with AI and robotics. Uh it'll be interesting to see sort of what happens. Um because there's going to be a huge disruption, it feels like, and we're at this precipice right now, it feels like, where we need to make some real decisions about what's going to happen and how is that all going to work out and and do we have the leadership in place to actually make that

The one thing that I really worry about is the mental health, um and you know, loneliness and um I think one of the kind of, I would say, gifts I have is that I've seen I feel like I've I've already traveled centuries in my lifetime.

I feel like in in listening to you, it is interesting in your studies and your travels, you have actually traveled centuries in your own way in their own lifetime. In your own lifetime. Yeah. A lot of people, they really narrow down and they clamp down into this very it's such a limited existence. You have lived an expansive existence. It has been one of a continuous journey for some new source of information is informing you. You are continuously expanding and that notion of tra you're you're traveling through the centuries in a way that is truly interesting. It's um fascinating to listen to you. Tell me more about that that notion.

Uh when I was born, I was born in a village and uh you will be surprised, three of my sisters uh are not uh actually one is educated a little bit, but pretty much not educated at all. And I belong to a family where it was not the resources, it was more of a cultural thing never to send girls to school. And uh that's the reason my mother had to separate from my father, because she believed uh in educating me and my elder sister. Uh and she moved alone with us. She had six children. She moved with us alone.

Uh got a house, uh and from a village to she came to city and she went through hell. Uh I saw her working very hard, uh you know, to not only to protect us, uh but also to managing. She was the father and the provider and the mother, um and the spiritual uh kind of force in our house. But at the same time, one thing which is very cool about her is like she never told us that this is our life. She will always take us back to the village. So for some reason I am very much connected to my village even today.

And when I go to my village, I become part of that village. I I wear a ch I would sit on a ground and I will I I I even know how to cook there, and I can live without gas for for months and without electricity, and it's like a primitive uh time, and I can go and be part of it and not as a burden and not as an excursion. Just like a truly I could be a I can live that way and I have no issue with that. And at the same time, I can come here and I can uh be in US and I can my husband is quite like a hippie, and I understand how it is to go to Burning Man uh festivals and you know and and I with all my morality intact, I can still have a lot of fun uh at Burning Man, and I can meet people and do uh you know uh and talk about arts in that festival.

And actually a lot of things happened uh in my spiritual journey at Burning Man too, and I think I connected somehow with Jesus. That was my opening towards Christianity that happened at Burning Man. So um so the most amazing thing that I think about my journey is that I can still go back and forth between different time period, different worlds. I think uh um the kind of family that I am from, I can still go, they're not from this time. They're they're from centuries. Their mindset is like centuries away from today's time.

And I understand that and I can live that and I can be with them, and then I can come out of it and I can be here and be with my husband who and be a hippie or be a doctor and be a a cool person, as you say. Um but what really the gift that I have is I really think about it a lot, and that's what I want to do with all of this, uh the the movie, the medicine, the knowledge that I have. I really want to create a village here, because I feel that is what is missing in the new world. Because what I saw in the village is everybody's interacting with everybody, and there's a time that everybody will gather around under a tree, uh all of the people, uh and they will just talk about the same thing again and again and again.

They will tell you or tell me the story that happened to you 20 years ago, and oh, when I was little, this is what you did. And whenever I go, they will they will talk about the same thing, because there was a school, um and there was a, you know, people used to sit on the floor u in the school in the village, and somebody took me there and they told the teacher that he's going to be the student, and I was like, no, I'm not going to sit on the floor. I will sit on your chair or I will not come to the school. No, I have no recollection of that. I was must have been very little, but every time I meet them, every time we gather, they they talk about the same story.

So I want this to happen here. I feel Tiburon has everything. People of Tiburon have a lot of resources. What they don't have is um a community where they can be together and they can share their stories. Uh not once a month, every day they have an opportunity together from say 5 to 8. Um they can have a meal together.

Okay.

Meal together maybe once a week, but at least they have a portal where anybody is welcome and everybody is welcome, and they know this is a place I can go and I can talk to anybody and connect with anybody.

I think that's why the library has become so important here, um as a place of connection. Certainly there are places that you connect, right? Usually there's, you know, alcohol involved, and uh that becomes seems to be become the main focus of that uh connection. You can connect with people in the gym, but

I mean, if you're really training in the gym, you talk about gym and you talk and that's a great idea. I mean, gym is a great idea. I believe people make friends in gym and then they go out afterwards, they do that. But I there are certain kind of people, for example, the interaction that I am really really looking forward to is like some elderly people who can interact with some young kids from some other family. So then it's not a burden on one family to raise children, because I see how horrible it is to raise kids here uh for parents, because that becomes their whole life.

You know, they have to think about uh who are going to be my kids uh friends and what are their parents doing. So they have to have hang out with their parents even though they don't they might not like each other, but they have to, and their whole life revolves around now this. But if you have some community which you trust, and they have all the time to maybe take kids to, you know, like a soccer game or something, and you trust them enough because it's a community and they are responsible as much as you are responsible for your kid. I think that changed a lot of things. That takes burden away from people. So what I'm talking about, not just going to gym or going to library. I'm talking about codependence of people on each other and and trust, building trust again in people.

Let's go back and let's talk about some things medically. Um because I think, you know, we're at this point in time where the sick care model, which is really entrenched. I mean, I I don't know how. I mean, I think it it's the healthcare consumer that has to essentially vote with their pocketbook and say, "I'm no longer going to participate in this plan. I'm not doing that that way. I'm going to uh go work with a functional medicine provider or health span, longevity doctor who's focused on prevention, and really, you know, maximizing my lifespan. Uh, and then I'll have catastrophic insurance if something terrible happens."

Um, you know, the the reality is that there's this whole industry, you've seen it up close and personal. It's a whole industry that's focused on just treating people when they're sick. And we go back to the mental illness piece. Um, which I mean there's a huge industry in this. Um you look at how many SSRIs are prescribed. Look at how many um GAD, you know, general anxiety drugs for the audience, are prescribed to people um to just cope with that.

Yet breathing and exercise, we know, you know, Richard, Dr. Richard Louis Miller is in here. He's talking about breath work and all the things that you're talking about, how powerful breath work can be, how powerful exercise can be in treating all of those things. And then the community piece, this notion he had said to me, "Jock, you know, we live in a in an epidemic of uh loneliness, isolation, and alienation." It speaks to everything that you're talking about, right? This notion of we're totally separate from one another. We don't have the connections. And the more we feel disconnected from one another, the more fearful we become of one another.

Uh so this first step is to just reach out and say, "Hi, I'm Jock," you know, and just create that connection with somebody and say and be willing to hear who they are and, you know, maybe like you said, maybe you don't like them, maybe it's not going to be the connection that you want to keep, but um the mental health side of things, it is a it's it is a really interesting time. A lot of people are just feeling completely overwhelmed, aren't they?

They are. And I also feel like exactly what you're saying is another thing which is really u diminishing is uh, you know, people choose to go to churches, people used to go to the religious spaces like every Sunday. It's not happening. And for me, that's when I talk about the village, I want to incorporate all of that back. Because even though you don't like religion, most of the people they don't agree with religion, what really happens when you go to a mosque, when you go to a church, when you go to to a synagogue, when you go to uh, you know, um temple, you meet people. And when you go and you meet people, they're all people who are there. They're seeking for something.

It comes very naturally. When you're making an effort to go to a church, you're actually putting an effort, and it's it already in your head and in your brain that, you know, you are going to do a good deed. You're going to be closer to divine. When all of the people are there for the same reason, you connect at a different level and you have a different energy. When you go to gym, you have a different energy. You're like, "Okay, I want to I want to like, you know, build muscles. I want to lose weight." That is a different mindset. Going to a spiritual place is a different mindset. And that's when you become humble. And when you're humble, that's when you connect to the other person.

Do you know, when I go into church, immediately it's sort of like just the notion of walking through that doorway is a recognition that uh it isn't you mentioned the ego before, right? We walk around this armor created by the ego, which is self-centered fear, uh and when I go into church, it's like, okay,

You shed it when you enter. It first thing that you shed is your ego. Otherwise you would never go to a church.

It it's the recognition that that I am not the um I am not the all powerful. Um and that is huge. Um it's easy to get disconnected from it quickly.

Very easy, because the thing is, as I said, you don't you you open some the scriptures, you'll read something, you're intelligent man, no, God cannot talk like this, this is not a God, this is not God's word, I don't believe in God. It's very easy. But the that's where I think uh that is what my gift is. There's

When you said sickness of the soul. So in Christianity, obviously they believe in um, you know, or certain sects of that belief in, there is this sort of notion of demonic possession and sickness of the soul, and over time, you know, that becomes progressive, and to the point in time where you're totally corrupted and um who knows how you make it back, right?

So there are two versions of that. Um I believe there's uh the evil and good is inside you, and you know, it it it's like two beers, whatever you feed is going to be. But I believe in demonic forces. I believe in that. And that's um going back to the same thing you said, you said before, breath work and yoga. I I don't think that's going to cure the soul uh illness, because no matter how much breath work you do, if you're not chanting a certain mantra in a certain frequency at a certain time, it's not going to help you. That's another thing.

So that's why um what I'm familiar with is um, you know, the the silsilas or the Sufi silsilas. But that's where the corruption happened, because the master knows when to give it to the disciple. Not everyone should be just starting any sort of breath work or any sort of, they just take something tantric this this and it, that is what is also very sacred, and it should be only certain kind of things should be practiced when you are when you go through the steps. Nowadays, because everything is accessible, there's an app for everything. You download the app and you are chanting the mantra and you're doing the breath work, and it's not going to help you. If anything, that it's going to trigger something.

So, I've seen so many people who actually uh even the same uh retreat that we went, um the first time when I did my meditation, there was a girl and she had uh she was doing marijuana and she had other, maybe some other drugs mixed with it, and she was going through that uh intense chanting and all this, and she had a breakdown, and she had uh uh to really struggle. She was hospitalized and um she had a lot of mental health issues after that retreat.

Going back to what you said before too about this notion of alcohol being on the decline and um other drugs being on the increase. We know alcohol is not good for you. That's for sure. Right. It's not good. I mean, I guess, you know, in moderation or whatever, but the reality is many of the psychoactive drugs can have one instance where it's just not something to play around with.

Um you don't even know what you're doing. You know, you can even like what happened at Cornell. Let's go back to the they were using all using ketamine. They didn't even know what you what they were doing, because you lose uh any kind of inhibition. And I mean, it happens with alcohol too, but uh alcohol, you have to drink a lot. You have to spend a lot of money. But with these drugs, I think it's just like it's so quick, uh and people lose the connection.

And I think that's where I really really think you can ground yourself, but scriptures are very very important, and people are running away from scriptures. No matter what scripture you're born with, your mother's born with, I I think that's what I believe, like you should go back to that scripture. Even if it is translated, even if it has gone through all the transformations, it will still speak to you. If you have a pure heart, you can read through it, some part of it will speak to you, and then you will read more and read more. And once you go on a journey, and that's what I want, everybody, everybody has their own journey. Every soul has its own journey, and sometimes some souls are very uh kind of uh evolved already.

And I I believe in reincarnation, because I believe that if you have a realized soul, then if you do something wrong to some person, you will have an instant karma. I believe like you will just something wrong will happen to balance it out. But if you have done something really really bad, so bad that, you know, it cannot be repeated, like say you've killed somebody, then you have to be reborn again. You have you can't get away with that karma, because that's like now huge. Um so I think with this to for the soul to realize the divine, this is the journey of every single soul. No matter where it's going to happen, it's going to happen.

So the more you go away from scriptures, you will come back to them, because that is the only thing that is from divine. And I am saying it with so so much maturity, because I have had this journey of going away from scriptures and now coming back to scriptures. And the scripture, when I say when you do breath work, uh that's where you need guidance. You even if you do and do breath work on your own, you will not get anything, and you will be disappointed that, oh, why am I doing this? I would rather do go and do drug.

I I agree with you on the breath work thing. You really need need to know what you're doing. You know, there's different types of breath work, obviously, right? Yeah. We've got breath work for athletics, we've got breath work for meditation, we've got breath work for spiritual, which yes blends propos line, but yeah, I think the breath work is really um it's sort of like you really have to seek it out to figure that portion of it out.

Because what you're looking for is like, you know what, you want to be high, and you say, oh, instead of a drug I can do breath work and I can be high. It's not going to happen, because breath work is just another exercise then for. Exercise is good to a certain extent, but sometimes, say for example, you're so obese that you cannot now lose all the weight just by exercise and diet. At that time, you need to have another intervention that is more powerful. You need discipline, you need all of this, as well as a drug or medication or a procedure, you know, after a certain BMI.

Similarly with your soul, if you're a good person, if you're a good person, um you've never lied, tired. You always morally correct. The breath work will help you without any uh teacher, because you're already a good person. You already have a soul which is already kind of a kind of a good soul, and it will work for you. It'll connect you to the divine, and once you're connected, you will get the signs yourself to what what next to do. I don't have to sit here and tell them. They will figure it out themselves.

They will figure out what saint they have to go to, where they have to travel to. It will come to them through the dream, through a book, through a friend. Somehow they will reach that. It is in their destiny. But if a person is um not a good person, then and he'll start saying, oh, I want to just get money, I should be just like I, or I will do drug, and I want to do breath work, nothing is going to happen. It's not going to happen.

Listening to you, I'm paraphrasing this, but it's almost like you're clouding the the corruption of the soul is the clouding of the ability to actually see those things.

Yes.

As they present themselves, right? So if you're if you have a clean soul, you're you have this ability to actually see right through to

Oh, that makes perfect sense. You connect it. So how different religions have described it is you have a mirror, a clean mirror inside you. That's where divine lives. So if the mirror is not clean, you won't be able to see the divine in yourself. So it's all about cleaning that mirror. And how do you clean it? It's, you know, a lot of things. Your moral values, you know, what are you doing, and also to clean it, to to to do certain kind of things, you have to do certain things.

And that's why different religions tell you to do certain kind of things: go to church, go do these rituals. I mean, most of them are also man-made. Now that is also the the difficult part, is if I tell you to go to church and listen to somebody who doesn't know what he's talking about, like a lot. I really think at this point there's so much information out there that every soul has to find their own truth, their own way, but they have to choose one of the thing that will help them to to ascend the staircase for for ultimate realization.