The Power of Psychedelics: Fireside Project

I want to leave my career as a lawyer to become a psychedelic therapist. It's great to hear that those kind of hotlines are there. I want to do for others what psychedelics were able to do for me. He said to me something that I will never forget. I don't know whether I've been given a gift or whether it was there all along, but I feel like I've unwrapped it. What's the overall sense of fulfillment that you had from that overwhelming gratitude? To bear witness to another person is just beautiful. It helped me in all of my relationships redefine how I saw others and how I really like thought about what what it is that makes a person.

Joshua White, welcome to the Pathway to Peak Performance. So great to have you in. I am truly excited for this episode. Thank you for making the time out of your busy schedule to come see us. We have a lot of ground to cover.

We do. Thank you for this opportunity.

Oh, it's my pleasure. So, I think we should probably start with your charity.

Okay.

Which is Fireside Project.

Yeah, of course.

Yes.

We'll get into the history of that and how it how it came about. But before that, let's just sort of give everyone a little bit of background. You're a an attorney in uh the city of San Francisco advocating for people who are being um taken advantage of by businesses. Thank you for doing that. That is incredibly valuable work protecting citizens from predatory business practices. That I think is something that's so important. Prior to that, you were at Yale and uh you have an incredible sort of background and what I think is interesting is at some point in time you decide that you want to start checking out these helplines.

So maybe you can tell us a little bit about any of the stuff that you want to cover before and how we got to this place and then what happened thereafter.

Sure. So yeah, the the funny thing was when I started my job as a deputy city attorney at the San Francisco City Attorney's Office, I started really falling in love with psychedelics. Um, and for me it was always about uh the connection between psychedelics and therapy. Um, I had a really challenging childhood, a lot of trauma and so forth. And I had so much inner work to do. I'd been in therapy for a while and then when I started taking psychedelics, I felt that it really supercharged my experiences in psychotherapy. I could go deeper. I would notice myself healing. I would notice my relationships getting better. I would feel better in my body.

And I thought to myself, okay, I want to leave my career as a lawyer to become a psychedelic therapist because I want to work with MAPS and I want to do for others what psychedelics were able to do for me. And so I had a friend tell me, "Well, if you're going to leave this career as a lawyer, which is a pretty good career, you should see if you actually like providing emotional support," which was very good advice. And so I started volunteering on a support line in San Francisco called the SF Child Abuse Prevention Center. Now it's called Safe and Sound. And they have a hotline for basically parents who are feeling really activated. And so they can call us if they felt like they were going to do something that they would regret.

And for one thing, this was an exercise in fierce compassion, right? Speaking to a parent who's maybe on the verge of doing something horrible and really seeing that they're just in pain and they want to be heard. They want a safe safe container where they can just share what's coming up for them and not be judged. So, I really fell in love with hotlines. And I ended up staying and volunteering on that hotline for about seven years, learning all about how to run it and and really how to provide like effective emotional support.

And I was always struck by the role that a hotline can play in a community mental health ecosystem. They're free. They're everywhere. It's not therapy, but it's therapeutic. Lots of people have issues with therapy. They can't afford it. They have trauma around therapy and so forth. And so support lines are free and everywhere.

So then fast forward to the start of the pandemic, the world of course seemed like it was going to hell, but also psychedelics were really blasting off. MDMA was moving deeper into phase three clinical trials. Uh ketamine telehealth had started and it really seemed like if I'm going to give my life to psychedelics, if I'm going to devote my existence to these, it's now or never. And so I asked myself kind of the same question that we would ask ourselves at the San Francisco City Attorney's Office before we brought a lawsuit, which was, what's the biggest impact I can possibly have for the smallest amount of resources?

And I thought to myself, you know, if psychedelics are going to reach their full healing potential, it's only going to be because everyone in the world has free unlimited access to psychedelic support when they're navigating those experiences. And I thought, hey, I could make that happen by launching a support line for psychedelics. And Fireside Project was born out of that idea. We've been operating for almost 6 years now. And people can reach out to us by phone, text message, or mobile app, not just when they're in the midst of a psychedelic experience, but also if they want to talk about a past experience that they had, whether it was days or decades ago. We've had 40,000 conversations so far. Our support line call volume keeps going up and then we've also created a few other services which I know we'll talk about it a little bit.

Yeah, it's great because um I think about 20 minutes it should really start kicking in and so we're going to see like how you react to me as I go through this whole process.

Yeah.

Of taking ketones.

Love it.

So the show is sponsored by KetoneAid which is like the you know top-of-the-line um ketone. It's a ketone. It's beach ketone. The actual research came out on it in 2016 in August. So just about a little over 10 years ago,

Okay?

And it's really phenomenal stuff. So you can use it for like recovery, performance, that sort of thing at the body level. Sort of the fourth fuel. If you go into dietary ketosis, your body starts to produce ketones, become less dependent on glucose.

Yeah.

And the brain can run on them. So you can use these in conjunction with a regular, you know, a flexible metabolic sort of experience or diet. Um, so we have two different options.

Okay.

The first one is K2, which is sort of the I would say it's more the entry point.

Okay.

For most people, it maybe a little easier on the palate.

Okay.

Uh, and then there's K4, which is the stuff that I use every day. I use it like three times a day.

All right. So you get to pick which one would you like to try?

Let's go. So, let's go straight into the deep with the K4.

My kind of guy. All right. So, I'm going to give you this bottle. We're going to time it out. So, it's 11:27. We'll call it 11:30. So, Zach is going to chime in about 30 minutes from now. We're going to see if um we feel more tuned in.

All right. I'm excited.

Yeah. Fantastic. Cheers, my friend.

Cheers. Bottoms up.

When I first started to use these, I really noticed like immediately how different they made me feel.

What have you noticed? What have been the biggest changes you've seen?

Big cognitive. You know, I think, you know, you're an intense guy. You're in, you know, intense situations. We kind of go non-stop.

Yeah.

And have been for so long that there are just times when you just need a little more mental focus.

Yes. Yes.

And have to sort of stay in it. You can't get out of it. You got to be in it.

Right. And so it just makes that possible post uh workout. It's a great recovery. So a lot of Tour de France riders use it post segment for a quick recovery. It's anti-catabolic to the muscles.

Okay.

Zach and I take it um in the mornings when we work out prior to working out. So it's sort of muscle sparing.

I see.

Um, and allows you to not have to tap into as much of the glycogen that's stored in the muscles.

I see it. Okay. All right.

So, I want to go back to I've always felt like there's there should be some sort of place where it's like, hey, before you before anything gets out of control, it's like, hey, before you think about doing this or before you're thinking about committing a crime, before you're thinking about harming a child,

Yes.

Seek the help before it's a crime.

Yes.

And yet there isn't anything there. And some of these situations are so horrific.

Oh yeah.

It's great to hear that those kind of hotlines are there. And I'm curious to just like your sense of what was that like to deal with people who were, you know, maybe you can go back and recall, you know, sort of a blinded sort of experience of dealing with somebody in that situation.

I I I think that there's there's a tendency sometimes that I know I had before working on this line where it's very easy to just be judgmental of people, right? When when someone comes to you and is uh is feeling really activated, maybe they're saying activated things to difficult things to you, maybe they're about to do something where you feel like I'm going to judge this person based on that horrible moment or judge them based on something that they did like it in the past. And I think we all know internally for ourselves that's not actually how people work, right? There can be triggers that happen. And when we're triggered, it's almost like if you believe Internal Family Systems, which I do, it's like there's another part of you that's engaging to probably protect you from some kind of pain that you're feeling.

And so I think working on the support line is so powerful because it really invited me to engage with this deeper part of of someone. They're sad. They're frustrated. They're they're alone. And those intense feelings were causing them to sort of activate these protector parts in themselves that could have led them to do something that really is not like a true reflection of of who they are.

Um, and so I remember in particular one one caller, and part of what made this support line so special, by the way, was we offered unlimited weekly follow-up calls. So I worked on the same shift every week for many years. And when someone would call in, we would have our initial conversation and then we would say, "Hey, can I give you a call back next week?"

And I remember not long after I started speaking to this one guy who had actually um just lost custody of his son as a as a result of um you know some things that he that he had done. And he was calling in regularly and I would call him back every week um because he really could feel this this part of him that would get frustrated when he didn't feel seen and understood just lashing out at others. It's a it's a it's a common problem that people have. And over time, I was able to just connect with this deeper part of him. You know, he hadn't felt a lot of love from his parents when he was younger. Uh the the parts of him that were really tough and strong, those had been that had been sort of the basis on which how he'd built many of his relationships and how people saw him. But it left it left him feeling really really really trapped uh and and alone.

And over time, uh, we were able to really allow him to kind of separate out these these intense, angry parts of himself from this this deeper part of him that was actually a very sweet guy. And we talked almost weekly for at least 3 or 4 years. He was able to um ultimately get partial custody back of his son. And he was so insightful. And he said to me something that I will never forget. He said, "I don't know whether I've been given a gift or whether it was there all along, but I feel like I've unwrapped it." I I I was just gobsmacked by hearing that. And he kept talking and I said, "Hey, hey, hey, wait. Can we just go back to what you said?"

Um, and so just by allowing him to feel heard and understood, he was able to like redefine his perception of himself as being this frustrated, angry guy to one who um was actually like a very sweet, heart-centered person who who could see himself as as a gift to the world instead of as um this sort of darker being.

Good people do bad things.

Yes.

But that doesn't mean that they're bad people.

Absolutely.

That's sort of the takeaway that I get from what you're saying.

Oh, yeah.

It's it's the recognition that you as a being uh have all sorts of inputs.

Yes.

Some of them are horrific.

Yes.

Some of them are great. Uh they affect you in different ways.

Yes.

And we live in a society today where we're we don't know what is somebody going to do,

Right?

And everybody's on edge.

Yes.

So I think that's phenomenal. I I really congratulate you on taking I mean that's a real commitment you know to stay in that and then that kind of follow-up that's like that's a commendable uh action you know and it's not something that's like a fleeting thing that's a real commitment of time. What's the overall sense of fulfillment that you had from that the the sense of overwhelming gratitude?

I mean yes I I hear the words that you're speaking and it's it's very nice. I know I know it was a commitment but actually I think like what I got out of it sometimes I would feel guilty because I felt like I was getting so much out of these calls. I mean, for one thing, I think to bear witness to another person is just beautiful, right? And then to allow yourself to see past this exterior into the beautiful interior of a person is it helped me in all of my relationships sort of redefine how I saw others and and and and how I really like thought about what what it is that makes a person.

Um, and so in other words, when I started to to really dive deep into Internal Family Systems, it really aligned with this view that I'd already been developing on the support line, which is that each person has a self, a a soul that that is that is good and pure. But then we get hurt. Um, and when we get hurt, there are these little parts of us that get split off. And in IFS, they call them exiles. Parts of you that are in pain. And then all of these things that you do, all these actions that you take to keep that exile from feeling pain, IFS calls protectors.

And literally, if you think about it, all of the suffering in all of the world has has been caused by protectors just trying to do right by the exiles that they're protecting. In other words, people who work too hard or engage in violence or who take too many harmful drugs. All of those things, those are actions that a protector is taking to keep an exile from feeling pain. And um but beneath it all is this beautiful pure soul.

And so I think our work as developing humans is really to get to know these different parts of us. And not just that, but to really fall in love with them. To see that even the worst impulse that you have, the worst behavioral impulse to do violence or to hurt someone is really just a protector that's trying to keep this hurt part of you from from feeling pain. And I think when we develop these loving, trusting relationships with these different parts and and psychedelics can certainly help with that. We'll talk about that. It allows someone to live from this this place of pure heart. I know it sounds um maybe idealistic a bit but for me that's my own lived experience.

You know it's really interesting I as I'm listening to you I'm following this 100%. So you know take that and you sort of take a look at the world is on guard and anyone can have a bad day. It's like we look at like hey oftentimes when I I look at people and I just had a really interesting discussion with somebody about this where so it's so easy to internalize others' actions, right?

And say oh what what's wrong with me. Oftentimes it doesn't have anything to do with you just happen to get in the way of these things

That you know that this energy that these people are uh projecting.

So I I I follow you 100% and I think the notion of protecting these portions to these disappointments, great disappointments.

Yes. Yes.

People have um and they sort of silo them off and then they say they coat them, right?

Exactly. Exactly.

Whatever that coating is. It could be alcohol, it could be what, you know, whatever it is and coat it and they silo it so they don't actually have to, you know, feel it.

Yeah.

Um I I feel like if we just had a little more understanding for each other

Oh, yeah.

And a little more grace.

Yes. Yes.

Right. The the country is totally divided at this point in time.

Yes. But I think it's interesting just to sort of see like what's going on in this country. We're sort of at a place where as you alluded to, we just demonize people who are are different from ourselves. And and not just that, but we we we do it so quickly, right? There's this I mean maybe it's because of social media, maybe it's because we all live in our own bubbles, but there's just this like incentive to instantly categorize someone as as bad and then push them away.

And to be clear, I I I understand that impulse there there's a a weird safety. In other words, if you can uh suggest to yourself that you perfectly understand this person and they're bad and they're a threat and you just push them away. But of course I I suspect that at a deeper level we know that um that that's not really accurate that each person uh is uh has a universe inside of them just as we just as you and I have a universe inside of each other and that our actions are are complicated.

But you know I often come back to the wonderful Viktor Frankl quote that I'll that I'll butcher but it says something like you know in between perception and reaction there is a space and in that space is freedom. And I think, you know, as we were talking about before, whether it's social media, whether it's so many different things, there's this like erosion of that space between perception and reaction. And it's that it's it it's when that space erodes that we don't just form these kind of lightning quick judgments, but then we act upon them. But I think the the the the exterior world that we're seeing now for me really feels like a consequence of collapsing that space and then um catering to our worst instincts.

It's the safety of uh separation.

Yes.

And so that is for many people so immediate. It's like okay you're not like me so I can I can have this uh you know polarized I'm not interacting with you. And yet we're at a time, a point in time where it's absolutely critical that we have to listen to one another and we don't have to agree.

Yeah, exactly.

That's cool, man. But doesn't mean that I can't be friends, right? It doesn't mean that I can't love them, right?

It's cool, man. There's so many fundamental skills that I wish kids were learning from from a very young age, right? That can be everything from meditation, um, which in part can cultivate that spaciousness that we're talking about, but also just how to listen, right? Um, to to actually get in a room with someone and not just, and this is a big part of what we teach at Fireside, not listening to respond, but actually listening with with the profound desire to understand. And what would this world be like if if we could all do that for each other?

When someone comes in with the just the worst vitriol and instead of trying to defend, if you said, wow, you really sound upset right now and I would love to understand a little bit more about that, like, man, you give me goosebumps, tell me about that, right? It it's almost like a form of of emotional aikido where rather than pushing backwards you just allow that energy to flow and dive deep.

The entire time you're talking about this, so I just go back to my judo days and I'm just like, you know, the the opponent's energy just going past you.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

And it's like you don't need to meet it. You can just let it be.

Yes.

And then obviously in judo, you use it against them. But in this particular instance, you're not trying to use it against them. You're trying to actually truly understand where they're coming from and find a common ground. The interesting thing today is that there's so much more common ground. And yet we've allowed ourselves to be completely polarized.

Yes.

So, let's move on to the psychedelics because I think, you know, if Eli Lilly is trying to patent a psychedelic, that tells you something, right?

Yeah.

We're in this time where we go back to where people, I guess probably it's in the 50s, is it, when psychedelics really start to find their way into the mainstream of things or is it prior to that?

Yeah, I mean I I think you have, you know, Albert Hofmann's, uh, inadvertent discovery of of LSD in 1938 and then his intentional ingestion of it in 1943, Bicycle Day, of course, April 19th, 1943. And then he just starts mailing, uh, what what he called Delysid, uh, the the the pharmaceutical that he developed within Sandoz Pharmaceuticals all over the world. So that that was one piece of it.

And then, you know, of course, another piece of it was, you know, Gordon Wasson's explorations in Mexico. He and his wife were looking for, uh, these psychedelic mushrooms, and they had their experience with Maria Sabina, which from some accounts is, you know, deeply unethical, kind of duping her into providing them the ceremony. But funny enough, Gordon Wasson mailed psilocybin mushrooms all over the world to different people, basically saying, "What's going on inside this mushroom?" and Albert Hofmann was the first to to synthesize it.

So you have that and then, um, I think you have these different psychedelics that start seeping into, uh, popular culture, I think incubated by Albert Hofmann, but then there were other people like Humphrey Osmond, Al Hubbard, that were kind of, um, pollinating different parts of our culture, whether it was Hollywood and so forth. Um, but yeah, I think it was like the late 40s, 50s, and then by the 60s they had seeped out into popular culture.

And then we see the CIA using an MK Ultra, um, for reasons that, you know, but it's really interesting to see where we've come to today where now we've got what we would call a class of therapeutics that are being studied more and more.

Yes.

Um, the outcome data is pretty strong for, you know, people have PTSD, etc. I mean, you would know far greater than I would, but I think that's a really phenomenal, um, uh, thing that's happening and I'm really excited to hear about the Fireside Project and what's come out of this. So let's go, let's go to the origin.

Yeah.

You start this, you're really interested in psychedelics, you're using them yourself in therapeutic, uh, circumstances or situations or how, I don't know how you would characterize that. Unlike where today we have these people that are actually taking people through these journeys, right?

Right.

You know, it's like, hey, you need to hire somebody that's going to journey guide a journey through the whole thing. So, I guess the idea is that you don't have a bad trip or something like that, right?

And you can go deeper. I think when you're in a, when you're in a really safe container with a, with an ethical guide, it just frees you up to to only go within. You don't have to worry about whether I'll have enough food or water or going to the bathroom or you, it really just allows you to let go. It allows your nervous system to let go so you can go deeper into the experience.

Wow, that's that's wild.

Yeah.

Um, okay, so you start this, you start talking to people.

Yeah.

What's the first call like?

It was actually really wild. Um, it was a guy who, and I should say, you know, we we launched April 14th, 2021. So, we like to say just in time for Bicycle Day. And you know, we'd had this, even before the line launched, this kind of explosion of interest because we we posted the website and started inviting volunteers to apply on October 28th, 2020, which by coincidence happened to be 5 days before Oregon adopted its psychedelic laws and before DC decriminalized psilocybin. So, we got this huge sort of tailwind behind us.

We had hundreds of people applying to work on the support line. The day the support line launched, we had, you know, we had a Rolling Stone feature, Esquire, Forbes. I mean, it was this big deal. But then the question was, okay, people want to volunteer on this line, but is anyone actually going to call it, right? Is anyone going to take this radical leap of faith, um, to literally call a stranger while they're tripping? So, I remember sitting there at the time with my two teammates. Uh, we'd had our opening ceremony and and now we wait.

And so the first call that came in, it was so, um, I think emblematic of an issue that we see all the time. So a guy called us from, um, the Midwest, um, a part of the country where he had, he had no psychedelic community. He wasn't really connected to psychedelics. He he'd been experiencing, uh, acute depression for a long time. He'd had a psychedelic experience that was really intense. He didn't know how to process it. He didn't know who to call.

So like a lot of people, he went to his therapist. His therapist happened to not know anything about psychedelics. His therapist was steeped in a lot of the, shall I say, propaganda that the Just Say No era and before and after have propagated. And so his therapist said to him, "Well, you you you took a schedule one drug that may have damaged your brain." Um, and so this guy ever since hearing that was kind of in this downward spiral.

Um, you know, there's there's something about how, you know, psych psychedelics, they're they're what we call non-specific amplifiers, meaning they amplify what's inside of you. And that amplification can be a golden opportunity to really do do some work to integrate parts of yourself that you may have outcast. But also, if you don't know that that's true, you can simply think that you're being confronted and maybe even being overwhelmed by your demons. You you can think that you're on this horrible path and that this isn't an opportunity to work. This is just the end of your life as you know it. And when your therapist, who especially in our culture has almost like a priestlike, uh, quality in our eyes, tells you that you may have damaged your brain, you're going to start to believe that.

So this guy called us. Uh, he was, um, he was on the verge of being suicidal. He was feeling desperate and alone. And what we were able to do on the call was first just normalize his experience. You had a tough mushroom journey. You're having a tough integration process. And that's normal. You didn't damage your brain. And in fact, what what's coming up for you may be an opportunity for you to learn about yourself, to show yourself curiosity and compassion. And that's not a distraction from how the healing works with psychedelics. It is exactly what healing looks like in psychedelics. So that that was, that was call number one. I think we're at 43,000 calls now and, uh, and our our rates keep going up.

That's so cool. I mean, to think like, you know, as a a therapist can split somebody.

Yeah.

You know, you got to be really careful who you talk to because the wrong person can say something to you that could really mess you up.

Especially someone who we we often have on a pedestal and, you know, if you go, just because you have, you know, a degree, whether it's like a PsyD, a PhD, almost certainly, unless you got that degree in the last year, you learned literally nothing about psychedelics. And so where does your information come from? It's either personal use or Reddit or Erowid, um, or nowhere at all. I mean, like most people, I mean, when I started out with psychedelics, there was so much, there were so many layers inside of me, um, of of propaganda that had been really instantiated within me that I had to unpack. And luckily, I lived, you know, at the time in the San Francisco Bay Area where there are a lot of psychedelic friendly people. But if I hadn't had that, it's it's terrifying to think where I may have wound up.

And so, I think as psychedelics, you know, work their way into the mainstream, there's so many different areas of society that h- that are going to have to shift, right? One of them is, uh, you know, education that has to start at a young age, right? And so like in the Bay Area, there's an amazing program called Know Drugs, K Drugs, and they have a curriculum that they teach in certain Bay Area junior highs and high schools that's basically an evidence-based drug education. Uh, so learning about what are these different substances and learning good safety practices, right?

In the exact same way that you would never get behind a wheel or operate a chainsaw without learning some basics, you shouldn't take psychedelics either unless you've learned the basics. And that's everything from, you know, dosage to testing to knowing some contraindications, all of these different things because these are incredibly powerful tools.

Oh yeah.

And, um, educating people has to start at a young age. And then for people who are already older, we're starting to see that in, you know, undergrad and graduate educations across the board.

Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, kids are going to do them.

Yes.

So, if it's going to happen, right?

Right.

If you, it's like we could just go right out the water right now. Get on, get on a boat with no life preserver.

Exactly.

Right. And the boat starts to sink. That water's cold. You're going to last about seven to 10 minutes.

Yeah.

And you know, there wasn't a distress call that went out. Man, he could be in big trouble.

That's it. I mean, what what you're speaking to is is literally just classic harm reduction. People are going to engage in an activity anyway. So, we may as well equip them with the things that they need for that to be safer. Whether it's sailing, whether it's sex, whether it's getting on a bike, um, know, knowing the rules of the road and putting on a helmet. So, psychedelics are no different.

And I think when psychedelics are taken in a in a in a safe way, and by safe I mean that in the broadest sense. Do you, you know, are you in the right set and setting? Have you made sure there are no contraindications? They actually are really safe. And that what we're starting to see now, and this is I think, like, concerning, is when something, um, bad happens following a psychedelic experience, it's blamed on the psychedelic. It's not blamed on the lack of education.

So, I'm thinking, for example, of the Alaska airline pilot who, uh, basically took a bunch of mushrooms and then was still in a kind of depersonalized, derealized state 2 days later, boarded a jet and almost brought down the jet. Uh, and he was, you know, he was convicted of of manslaughter. He lost his license. And what we know is he he had so little education about psychedelics that he thought that because he identified as an alcoholic and because he'd heard that mushrooms can help with alcoholism, the time to take mushrooms is while he's drunk.

So this guy took 5 grams of mushrooms, which is a hero's dose, while fall down drunk. Of course, he's going to have a terrible experience. And of course in the days after, um, he's not going to realize that like the challenging experiences that he's having may actually be a window into his core issues. Um, but but he didn't know that and and really, um, you know, made unfortunate decisions. But it would be ridiculous to blame psychedelics for his issues. What we should be blaming is the lack of widespread education, the lack of, uh, awareness about services like Fireside Project.

I love what what you're doing. So, you know, you're you're sort of, we have the past, we have the present, we have the future. It's, it seems to me that the Fireside Project is addressing all of those things. I could call you and talk about an experience that I had. Maybe there's something that's troubling to me about that. I could dig deeper into trying to understand, hey, maybe this was an opportunity to see something. And we all have blind spots.

Oh yeah.

Right. I think you have to have that safety of having a peer group or some sort of resource that allows you to actually check your thinking. So you can the past, then you can be in the present and like, hey man, I don't know. I'm starting to feel a little edgy here, right? And that to be, you're not alone, right? Right here with you. And then there's the thought of the future, which is the education, right?

Hang on. Thinking about doing this. What would be the right way to do it?

Exactly.

Uh, pretty powerful. Oh, let's check in on the ketones really quickly.

I was thinking about that. I I I feel really sharp.

Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like an acuity or like a, like a more rais, um, like my thoughts feel sharper and more articulate. What do you notice?

Uh, the same. It's always the same.

Yeah.

You know, I think I take them so frequently now.

Yeah.

Cuz I'm taking them three times a day. So in the morning when I first wake up and that's prior to any caffeine.

And how long do they, do they last? Do you notice?

You know, for everyone I think all of our systems, we metabolize things differently, so it's hard to say.

Yeah.

But I think generally speaking, you're going to get a good, like a good feeling for a couple of three hours.

Yeah. Okay.

Um, and some, for some people longer than that. Depends on their level of sensitivity to it. Right. The thing about these is they're just actual fuel.

Right. I was going to say I feel it in my body in a, in a, like I feel more power without any jitteriness.

You're describing something that many people feel, which is this sort of like non-jittery.

Yes.

Like awareness that you typically feel with caffeine, but there's that, uh, feeling of caffeine that gives you an edginess.

Yes. Exactly.

Uh, with too much caffeine.

Right.

You want to take the right amount of this. And I think it's so personalized.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, you you kind of get a sense of what works for you.

Right. Right.

Yeah. We got to get you on them.

Yeah. Totally. Super interesting. I'm excited to, when I'm trying something new, you know, you kind of titrate up or down. You, what would it be like with half? What would it be like with twice as much and then find that balance?

I'll bring you some to...

Yeah. Oh, that would be great. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. I'll give you reports on how it's going.

That would be great. And the guys at KetoneAid are just phenomenal. They've just really been great to work with.

That's awesome.

They're really committed to doing things at the highest level. I think anytime you see a product company that's really trying to move towards a clinical trial, that's a good sign.

Yeah, man.

They're really trying to figure out like, okay, how does this really benefit people? And, um, it's it's cool.

Love that.

So, all right, we get into Lucy, which is really interesting because you're able to actually train people

Yeah.

in an environment where it's almost like a flight simulator.

Exactly. That's exactly what it is.

You know what I mean? I, maybe I've, I've shadowed for a period of time, but the minute I take the stick of the plane, right, I'm fascinated by this.

Yeah. Thank you. And one of the great things about running Fireside is, you know, we sort of see where the rubber meets the road in this, in the psychedelic field. And we also, you know, the people on the line are volunteers who are typically aspiring practitioners, people who want to go into this work. They come to us for a full year. They get a 50-hour upfront training and then they spend 200 hours with us over the course of the year learning the skill of how to provide psychedelic support.

And one of the things that we heard from them a lot was, okay, the upfront training was great. Um, but there's like this bridge that's missing between that training and when I actually get on the line with someone who's having a really intense experience, like is there, is there something that could happen there to help prepare us? And in in almost all psychedelic trainings that exist now, that bridge is a total joke, right? You find a partner and one of you pretends like you, you're tripping or pretends like you're integrating. And the problem with that is we know it's fake.

And for a simulation to be effective, your body needs to believe it's effective. Your nervous system needs to believe it's effective because so much of this work, the vast majority of it, in fact, is staying grounded. And so what that means is if someone is having a really intense experience in front of you, can you check in with your own nervous system, can you downshift? Can you keep your nervous system grounded? And so we built Lucy to kind of be that bridge between classroom learning and real world care.

So we train our volunteers with it. Um, but we're also now partnered with different training institutions, Mount Sinai in New York, University of New Mexico and New Mexico and and other relationships that we're starting where, yeah, it it's what you said is exactly right. In all of these other professions, there are simulation-based trainings, pilots, surgeons, other kinds of doctors, and so forth. And so, Lucy is that, um, and so how do we, how do we build Lucy?

Um, well we have this, this, uh, pretty large corpus of calls from the support line. Now I should say that we, you know, we tell all of our callers beforehand your call's being recorded and anonymized, uh, in order to in part train Lucy. We tell people the day afterwards that their call has been recorded. They can opt out. They can delete it. And then all the calls that we save we, uh, we anonymize, which means we strip out the personal information, and then we use a process called obfuscation, which basically means we distort the voice beyond recognition but preserve the emotionality and tonality, and none of the data ever leaves Fireside Project.

So we've really built the most, I think, like ethical way to to gather this data, because the trust of our callers is all that we have.

You know, it's so great to hear you say that, because we live in a a point in time, and I don't want to go on a rant outside this discussion.

Yeah.

But our privacy has been invaded. So, it's so bad.

Right. Right.

And I think, um, having built a platform where privacy was the key component of it out of healthcare space, um, it's super important, and the integrity of that is like paramount.

It it is, and people, it's it's really interesting to your to your point. You know, we see that people have been rightly traumatized by the way that uh that some of these larger companies have treated them, right? That's everything from taking all of the data on the internet without regard to copyright and building these models. It's it's recordings with with min minimal consent and so forth. So people kind of come to us with with like real trauma, and even still, even with the lengths that we go to honor people's uh trust, there are some people who just hear the words AI and no matter what, you know, it's and and I respect that, and that's why people can can opt out.

So we built this, you know, um, repository of conversations that I I think it's the biggest conver the biggest repository of psychedelic conversations in history. Every substance at every dose, every set, every setting, we have those conversations. And so then when we want to build realistic, uh, call them like virtual patients or virtual clients, we can base them on those calls. Now, of course, calls on a support line are not the same as what happens in actual psychedelic therapy. And so what we actually can nerd out for a moment with you?

Let's go.

Okay, cool. So, um, when you're talking to, we'll call it a chatbot, um, when you're talking to a chatbot, there are kind of three parts, right? There are the ears, there's the brain, and then there's the mouth. So, the ears are what it's hearing. So, when you talk to ChatGPT, for the most part, what it's doing is just taking your words and translating them, uh, or transcribing them. It's not hearing the sounds of your voice.

So for the ears, we have a team of engineers at Fireside Project, and we built, um, basically our own acoustic biomarkers, vocal biomarkers. So when you're speaking to our to Lucy, Lucy is hearing what emotions are present in your voice, how quickly are you speaking? Did your rate of speech accelerate when Lucy started, um, talking about something really intense? So those are the ears that we built.

Then there's the brain. Uh, in other words, once Lucy hears, how is it going to decide what to say next? And so, the brain is a combination of, um, our calls, but also guardrails that we build with our clinical partners. Uh, so I mentioned Mount Sinai, the the great Rachel Yehuda, one of the premier neuroscientists of her day. We worked with her team to basically build a series of Lucy scenarios that are, that would be most helpful when she's training therapists in her MDMA-assisted psychotherapy model. So the brain is the function of what we hear from clinical partners. In other words, what what do you want this scenario to be about? What do you want the trajectory to be depending on whether a therapist is doing well, uh, poorly and so forth? So that's the brain.

And then the mouth is the sound that the virtual client makes. And that's really where a lot of our data is is so helpful. Um, so if you want to know what some, what a, um, a Black woman veteran sounds like when her MDMA is coming up, you just take a large number of conversations, uh, and synthesize them, and that's the output. So that combination is really what makes Lucy so lifelike.

And then we built an assessment tool afterwards. So after each module, you get assessed based on different competencies, and then you can keep practicing. Uh, so we really see this as, this is going to be how the field can can, uh, professionalize and can really help people get better so that ultimately they can just provide the best care that, um, that their, that their patients really deserve.

And I just wanted to say one other thing too, which is this isn't the only tool, right? In other words, for a therapist to become effective at their work, it can take years of practice. Uh, they need to have a mentor, they need to spend lots of time with patients, and they need to spend time with with Lucy and and other tools. So, we really see this as part of the suite of tools that can help, uh, therapists become better at doing this work.

Sure. It's it's additive.

Yes.

Um, that's really cool. I think cadence, tonality, inflection, understanding, that ability to sort of take the inputs, process it in the brain, and then respond appropriately based on where is this patient.

Yeah.

Um, is so important because if you want it to be effective in any way, shape, or form, uh, you're going to have to do that.

Yeah.

As I'm listening to you, I can just sort of map out all the different places where this is going to be effective.

Yes.

Um, so that is really really cool. And I I I would imagine in order to do what you're doing to feed it, 43,000 encounters is a lot of data for this particular, for where we are today.

And you look at, like, we were just listening to something the other day. Maybe large language models aren't really the thing. Maybe chat really isn't the thing. Maybe it's these really focused, purpose-driven, and that's what you've created is something that's really ve super specific to something. And that's maybe where the real value of artificial intelligence lives.

Certainly, there's some harmful aspects of AI, and we're seeing that today. We're seeing some things happen where, um, there's one particular product, uh, essentially comes out, 20 days, 5 million downloads, and the default setting on that is basically every single thing you have in your computer is being pulled out and used.

Oh my god.

I mean, imagine all of your personal information stripped out by the time you get over to change the privacy settings, right?

It is really not good.

Yeah, it's gross. And you know they're the people that are just going to check the box. They don't read the terms of service. The terms of service too long anyway. They just want, they want the, hey, just deliver the pizza.

Totally. That is unethical in my opinion. Right. I mean, Crisis Text Line got it, which is another, which is a text-based crisis service, got into trouble several years ago where they were taking their data and just outright selling it to a third-party customer service AI company. And you know, on page 45 of their terms and conditions, they said that this is what they're doing. And you know, that's ridiculous. Someone reaching out to a crisis service is not expecting that.

And so I think we try to basically, you know, at Fireside, Trial Law 101, take your weakness, make it a strength, right? We tell people before and after that this is exactly exactly what we do. We have links to exactly what we're doing. And I'm not aware of any other double opt out, meaning you can opt out before and you can opt out after.

Yeah. I mean, that's that's super cool because because somebody could be in like a state where they're not exactly aware of.

Exactly.

And you're coming back and saying, "Oh, by the way, I just want to make sure we were cool over here on that."

I've gone really pretty far down this like ethical question around data collection. Like what? And so I think there's like two parts. There's what's the consent? Like how how forthright and how robust is it before and after, how clear, but I think related to that is what you're doing with the data.

Yeah.

Right. And so if you have, you know, like so-called consent that's buried on page 80 of terms and conditions and what you're doing with the data is gathering all the data from someone's laptop and selling it to a third party without being, that's insane. And the type of consent that's required for such an egregious use of data is is, I mean, I don't even know if one can consent to that.

But for us, I think the one, our consent process, as I explained, is really strong. But then what we're doing with it, it doesn't leave Fireside, and it's being used, I should say, and I should have said this up front, right? Like, one of the reasons that we're doing this is we want to generate licensing revenue from Lucy so that we can keep the support line free. Right. So Fireside Project is a nonprofit. I'm the founder and CEO, but I have no shares in it. This is a public charity, as you said, and so any money that we make, all it does is just go to keep the support line free. It goes so that we can market the support line more so that more people have free support when they're tripping.

And so I think, like, when we're talking about like the ethics of data collection, I think it's critical to talk about what is the consent process, but also what's actually happening with the data. Those two are interrelated.

It's a very black and white situation in my opinion. Right. You're either on the right side of it or you're on the wrong side of it.

Right. In our world, our stuff is siloed, man.

Yes.

It's not, it's it's contained and is 100% private. So, it's interesting to see how people, uh, get lost, and maybe it's a little bit of a lack of education. They don't really understand like what they're dealing with. So, I think it's one of those things when you tr when you decide to get start wading in the waters and you can get in over your head pretty quickly.

Oh, yeah. And there's just, I mean, you know, like you know better than me, I mean when you're when you're starting a for-profit company, which again is not what I have, but you know, you have investors that you have to pay back. You have milestones that you need to hit. And so there's this there's this incentive there to, um, you know, to to to continue to serve your masters, which may be your investors rather than your customers. And so I think that that misalignment can lead to take people to very dark places.

Yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons why, you know, we have avoided, we just fund everything ourselves, because, um, once you're beholden to, hey, it's just a lot, ARR, and how quickly can you grow, and when greed becomes the motive—

Yes.

It's a crazy time.

So, all right, back to you.

I'm with you, we could talk about that forever, but yeah, let's go back to psychedelics.

Okay, cool. So when we talk about classes of psychedelics, there was the age-old sort of peyote buttons, right? You know, that would, like, somebody would go off, they would take this stuff, and then there's actually, there's the the show, I think they played in San Francisco. Robbie Kger takes uh uh a tab.

Okay.

Uh, before a show, and he's like, you know, they're just playing this stuff and, you know, they're on it.

Yeah.

Um, it's been in the San Francisco Bay area. Certainly, this has been a mecca.

Oh, yes.

For all of this for so long. Uh, it's really interesting to see how over the last, let's say, 50 years, maybe, I guess it's longer, but how this has evolved.

Yeah.

Where do you see this going?

Yeah. I mean, I I think there's, there are going to be different tracks, right? I mean, I think the underground is always going to be there. Um, and that's for that's for multiple reasons, right? Many psychedelics like mushrooms cost nothing to grow, they're they're abundant, and, you know, there there going to be millions of people who I think are always going to think, why bother going to a clinic when I can just get, you know, a few grams of mushrooms and have my friend sit next to me and have a really powerful experience? So, in some ways, like, the the saving grace of of some psychedelics from being totally gobbled up by, um, the the medical model is the fact that they're cheap and ubiquitous and you can probably have a pretty similar experience for very little money.

So, I think as, like, as psychedelics mainstream, demand will go up and the underground is going to explode. Um, that that's great, and it also has its share of problems, right? The underground means there are no regulations. You'll have facilitators who are who are unethical in a variety of ways or unskilled, um, doing their thing, and there probably won't be that much accountability. So, but I think track number one is the underground is also going to explode and and probably continue to thrive.

Then another track that I'm really intrigued by is, um, you know, psychedelic churches, and there, and so now what we're seeing, you know, United States has a law called RFRA, Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which pretty much says it's nearly impossible for the government to burden a religious practice. And so there are different psychedelic churches that are that are that are growing, um, whether it's around mushrooms, you have San Pedro, ayahuasca, peyote, and so forth. So I think that there will be, and I hope that there will be, um, you know, a lot of mushroom churches that that represent authentic religious practices. I think there's also a safety that comes with psychedelics being taken in a a church-like setting. And by church I don't mean Christian necessarily. I just mean a sa a sacred community. So I think that's, I think that's another track.

Um, then of course there's the med, you know, the medical model. I I I believe in the medical model. I think there's a category of people who want the security of of going into a clinic, getting their substance from an MD or or an NP, and really having a very contained experience that may just be to treat a mental health disorder. I believe completely in that, and I think from an access standpoint that's good. I also think that when, you know, the FDA starts to approve substances, which looks like it's certainly going to happen within the next year, it also makes the psychedelic philanthropy sector get bigger. Um, and so nonprofits like mine can do better when there are big big organizations and foundations in the philanthropy sector.

Big. Yeah.

And then there's, and then I think, you know, they'll, there will continue to be retreats in other countries as well as in the US. And then I think, like, ibogaine and iboga are are in a world unto themselves.

So, okay. So, there's a lot of ground to cover here. Um, I want to go back and we're gonna track through all of it.

Okay.

First thing I would say is you take a look at the cannabis world.

Sure.

Okay. Uh, and we have legalization of cannabis, and then it becomes just so regulated. It's so difficult. Prices go so low that the underground becomes comes right back up. Then they're using heavy duty chemical fertilizers and all this stuff that's probably not very good for people, right?

I wonder, like, in this particular instance, as the demand for this grows and that is present.

I mean, that's what we're seeing in Oregon, and we're going to start to see it in Colorado too, right? Oregon passed its, you know, 109 and 110. 110 was decriminalization. 109 is creating this state regulatory infrastructure for psilocybin, and exactly what you described happened in Oregon. You know, the the the Oregon regulatory infrastructure through the Oregon Health Authority paid for its entire cost on the back of licensing fees, right? So by the time a person went into a licensed psilocybin center in Oregon, their guide had to get licensed, the center had to get licensed, they had to get the mushrooms from a licensed growing facility. And so what that meant was that above ground track, if you will, was thousands and thousands of dollars. Meanwhile, the gray market thrived.

And so I I I think that's like a very very re, you know, real concern. Um, and I and I think, I think, you know, if someone has to pay out of pocket $4,000 or they can go to an underground guide for $1,000, I think that's just a reality that people are, may choose that. Now, I hope that in the regulated, or what Oregon is doing is still illegal under federal law. And so that means there's not health insurance that can cover it, and there are all sorts of other types of insurance that are lacking in Oregon as well. So my hope is that, like, once insurance starts stepping in and covering these substances, like what we hope to see when the FDA approves these substances, you'll be able to go and have a psilocybin experience, a 5-MeO experience that your health insurance pays for. And I think a lot of people, myself included, you know, I think there's a strong argument for having, for taking the substance in a highly regulated setting if your insurance covers it.

Yeah. At the same time, I think one of the things that is interesting about the notion of, like, what you talked about before, it's like, hey, let's go out to the headlands, right?

And take something and hang out and have a deep conversation.

Yeah. And that's beautiful. And I hope that always happens.

Right. And it will. The notion of, I mean, I don't know what the clinical setting is going to be like, but, you know, based on an ICD-10 code.

Yeah.

You're just in a white room just kind of trying to find your way out of it.

For sure.

Now it's like kind of strange. Um, all right. So we go all the way through, and you've talked about these, these that are going, that seeming, that seem like they're going to be approved, and we went all the way out to one that I've never heard of, and then I've heard of ibogaine.

Mhm.

My understanding of ibogaine is that it is a substance that can take people who are on opioids or addicted to alcohol or, uh, or have any kind of substance abuse issue, and it can essentially, like, wipe the slate clean. Is this true?

There there is good evidence about that. And so let me just back up. So I said iboga and ibogaine. So so iboga is a shrub that grows in West Africa. Uh, it's the sacred plant of the of the Bwiti tribe, uh, which is an indigenous group in Gabon, which is in equatorial West Africa. Um, iboga has many alkaloids, um, something like close to two dozen alkaloids that we know of. Alkaloid means active compound, and ibogaine is one of the active compounds. And so iboga is the full shrub. Um, I, ibogaine is is the extract.

Ibogaine got its got its start in the West as a treatment for opioid use disorder. Um, it sort of, um, that that, like, quote unquote discovery happened somewhat accidentally, but then there are studies using ibogaine to treat opioid use disorder. Then there's the famous study out, Nolan Williams's famous study out of Stanford using ibogaine to treat, uh, PTSD and the traumatic brain injury, the TBI associated with PTSD. Um, and and so iboga is, I think, a bit fuller of an experience. I I've had two ibogaine experiences and four iboga experiences myself. They're they're similar, but there are, you know, there are some differences, but, um, I I is is really like in a world unto itself molecularly. We just don't understand it.

Um, you know, I I was listening to the great Columbia chemistry professor Dalibor Sames, who's devoted his life to studying ibogaine and iboga, talk about this, and he basically said, like, we need to develop new models for how we understand molecular healing based on ibogaine, right? Every other drug we know is receptor focused, right? MDMA goes to your 5-HT2A receptor. It causes production of serotonin and dopamine, etc. And that's, and causes, like, blood flow to your, you know, amygdala to go down. So we can, like, map molecularly what's happening. Same for alist, all these others.

Ibogaine, we can't. It doesn't really go to any receptor. It sort of works on the entire system of your body and understands where you're out of alignment, whether that's, uh, spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, and basically helps bring you back into alignment. But it has access to all of the receptors. That's what's interesting, is it doesn't activate a receptor, but it has access to all these receptors.

So, for example, that's why it's so effective with opioid use disorder because it it has access to your opioid receptors. It flushes your opioid receptors while also going to, you know, as Gabor Maté said, like the root of addiction is pain. Um, and sometimes this just kind of brings us full circle to what we were talking about at the start of our conversation with IFS and these splintered hurt parts of ourselves. Um, many of us, um, myself included, you know, you you have these elaborate defenses around those really hurt parts of yourself.

And the reason people are addicted is because that those hurt parts of themselves are crying out in pain. But it and they may they may be in such pain that the defenses that your psyche puts up around them are so elaborate that nothing else can access them. Ibogaine can. Ibogaine allows you to go deeper into your subconscious into your spiritual self. It relaxes those defenses and allows you to process and release enormous enormous amounts of subconscious material while also flushing these other systems of your body. Flushing your dopamine system so you're no longer addicted to looking at your phone. Flushing your opioid system so that you're no longer addicted to opioids. It it is a literal molecular miracle.

It's really interesting. The thing about that is an adaptogen right in and it finds its path.

Yes.

And no one quite understands it. You could say these defense mechanisms are impermeable or selectively permeable, right? You know, basic high school biology sort of thought process. Um and that this it's able to enter wherever it wants to go.

Yes.

That's really fascinating

through through and the way that it enters is is unique because it's not overpowering any defense, right? None of your none of the internal psychological defenses that you have can ever truly be overpowered because if they are if if you're trying to overpower them, there will be backlashes. Right? The quote, you can never hate yourself into a better version of yourself. You have to build trust with them.

Right? Correct me if I'm wrong. The way I see this as I'm listening to you, it's almost like the body always wants to remain or whatever system wants to remain in homeostasis. So, if you take it high,

yes,

you're going to have a low point in reaction to that. Um, and then it's trying to come back up. I think that's one of the things you hear about people taking MDMA is that there's this incredible like super high, but then there's a low associated with it outside of that.

I I think it's true at one level, right? Like the idea that if you cause a spike in your serotonin then there's going to be a depletion uh then your serotonin will become depleted and so you might feel really sad you know a day or two after. So I think it's it may be true at that sort of initial molecular level but I also think that you know the work that you do on MDMA and these other psychedelics can really stay with you, right? Like if on MDMA what you were able to do was access a traumatic memory,

yeah,

through this lens of love and self-forgiveness, you you're literally rewriting the book on that memory and that book will will be rewritten remain rewritten even on Tuesday when your serotonin levels are lower, right?

And that discovery and new level set can actually just offset that lower feel. It's almost like the high of it it continues to ride on,

totally,

because you you've like you released or something.

Yeah, it's it's sort of like um the cultivation of self-knowledge is it exists unto itself, right? You're you're I think like I'll speak for myself like my life is far richer and I can make better and more authentic decisions with an abundance of self-knowledge and self-love. I might be sad many days. I might be anxious many days. Um but it's fundamentally different to move through the world with with self-knowledge and self-awareness and self-love.

Wow. Yeah. You know, the notion that is really cool. Um, you hear about uh couples using it to break down these barriers that have, you know, really shut off communication and all of a sudden it's like they're just wide open and and like they're restored back to that original state and they can kind of leave those other things behind and say, "Oh, that wasn't productive for us and I'm not sure how we got there, but let's not even let's just let it go." It's really cool, man.

You know, I think this is just a fascinating field. I I'd really like you to come back if you if you would would agree to do that. I'd be honest where we could continue to have this discussion as this evolves because it seems like we're at the precipice of a major thing about to happen. So ne next question.

Yeah.

What are the substances that you feel are going to be legalized or how how does that all work?

Right. So, you know, we have in in 1972 or 1971 the adoption of the Controlled Substances Act.

Yeah.

Richard Nixon says, "War on drugs. Let's go. Let's go." And so, and and then you have schedule one, which which basically means highly addictive and no medical purpose. Um, and then it kind of goes on down from there. All of the psychedelics are in schedule one of ketamine is a, if you think of that as a psychedelic, is in schedule three because it's used in emergency rooms.

Um, and what what we're seeing with all of these different psychedelics is the schedule one categorization is just bunk, right? They're not addictive. In fact, they cure addiction for the most part. And we're starting to see that there are abundant medical purposes. Um, and so, but of course to to prove that to the satisfaction of the FDA, you need to complete a a clinical trial to, you know, to the FDA standards.

So, so where are we then? We have uh we have two synthetic versions of psilocybin that are uh basically in the process of completing their their clinical trials and and submitting their application to the FDA. So that's Compass's COMP360 and then Usona's version. So Compass's version is to treat treatment-resistant depression. Usona is to treat major depressive disorder. Those will likely be approved within a year.

Let me interrupt you.

Yeah.

So that notion of resistant depression, so we just talked about uh serotonin being depleted, uh and Christy Fury said well it's you know we talking about um there's a good good case that SSRIs in the serotonin may not even be the issue around depression, right? And that it could just be an energy issue in the brain.

Sure.

So just coming back to this, sorry, uh just coming back to this notion of actually supplementation of fuel for the brain post utilizing some sort of substance like that could be really helpful and in the restoration. Uh how important do you feel when people are taking this like nutrition as a part of the of the game?

I think it's vital. Um and I think like one of and and they synergize, right? I mean, I remember like one of my first big psilocybin experiences. I was working too hard and I was overweight. And I remember walking into the bathroom of my apartment without my shirt and I looking at my body and I could see the body that I wanted uh inside of the the body that I was seeing.

And so I think that, you know, so so often the the problem that people have is they're too much in their head and they're not in their body. And and psychedelics bring you back into your body and they can cultivate um allow you to cultivate like awareness of your body and love for your body. And so of course what goes hand in hand with that is what you put into your body and how you treat your body on a daily basis. Like are you eating lots of vegetables or are you eating crap? Uh are you sitting on your butt or are you going out and doing things in the world?

And so I actually think that um that psychedelics foster behaviors that demonstrate how much you care about yourself and and how much you love yourself. And on top of that, you know, psychedelics create this, you know, so-called window of neuroplasticity, this period when your brain is it's easier to form new patterns. And so when you come out of a psychedelic journey, you have this self-awareness, you have the self-love. Okay, what does that mean in reality? Start a new fitness routine. Start a new nutrition routine. Start doing the things that you've been putting off because your brain will literally learn those patterns and they'll become entrenched in in a good way, right? You can have patterns that are healthy and patterns that are unhealthy.

So coming out of a psych and this is why integration is so important, right? You know, psychedelics aren't like aspirin for a headache, right? They they catalyze this these deep insights. They can catalyze um the these these visions of how you want to live your life, but then it's really up to you how you actually want to live your life. So I I think we will see and we do see, you know, at psychedelic retreats, you know, the food is really healthy usually. Um you come back, it's like you the first things you want to do are like eat more healthy.

You you look at your phone for the first time and you see it for what it is, which is this just disgusting colonizer of your brain and your attention. Psychonauts allow you to kind of like reconnect with yourself and then start making choices that are like that honor yourself rather than honor these these um these other parts of you that cling to unhealthy foods, that cling to phones and so forth.

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It's interesting to think like in some ways it just clears out all of like puts all of the issues the stuff that clutters the sharp relief.

Yes.

The ability to actually get into the the thing the exile.

Yes.

Reframe it. Understand okay that was then this is now I can move forward and um make some big changes. We know that hey when you make a decision within 72 hours if you don't take action on that it's likely it's not going to happen and I think that's where you know Fireside Project can be so helpful in like the ongoing education,

yeah,

of this and um and then no drugs,

right,

uh that notion of like hey there's a bigger picture to this.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And there are a lot of traumatized kids.

A lot of traumatized kids.

I mean, everybody's trauma is relevant. And sure, you know, you hear people who go to heal heal your trauma, right? You know, like you deal with it, right? You know, to move on from it, that was then, this is now. But for some people, that's not really the way that it works. And it's

I imagine that it works that way for anyone.

Yeah. I think I tend to agree with you. I feel like there have been some things in my life that I um you know I don't think you ever get over that.

It's possible to bury trauma and maybe you can forget about it for a period of time but what you bury festers in the darkness and becomes your shadow and that shadow seeps out in different parts of of your life. I think the way to heal trauma is by being with it and showing curiosity and showing it love and going through what you described a moment ago, which is the process of integration. Going back to those exile parts, showing them curiosity, showing them love and then welcoming them into your life.

Uh, which unassisted seems almost difficult, right, to imagine doing. I mean, we're talking about I have learned so much. That's why I love this show so much. You know, I get to learn so much just sitting across from brilliant people like you. Um, where it's just like, man, you have such a passion. I always say this, you know, in the pathway to peak performance, and no pun intended on this show today, um, you know, the reality is like you have to have a passion for excellence and really wanting to do it at a level.

And it's so evident, man, with you. It's like you are on it. You you're like so into it. And I also think it's really great. It's so cool to see somebody put invest that much time into a specific career and to say to themselves, "This is where my passion is."

Mhm.

I I would imagine it must have been great when you're when you're taking down businesses that are doing terrible stuff to people. It must have been great. I'm sure it's not great to hear some of the stories, but to actually find justice for those people, terrific. But to say, you know what, my passion is over here. Follow it and then put go all in. All the chips are in the middle, right? And is is that what you did? I mean, you

I think so. Thank you for for I I feel very seen, so thank you. Um yeah, I mean I I think like I enjoyed my career as a lawyer and um and I think a lot of things, you know, my my um one of my mentors, you know, talks a lot about this idea of alignment and um you know, I I think there was some degree of alignment with with who I am and my legal career, but I think when I went deeper and deeper into myself, I saw that like yes, my my my deepest passion in this life is psychedelics and providing psychedelic support and creating a world where people can have these experiences in a in a safe way.

And I think everything flows from alignment, right? The the deeper that you are that you are aligned within yourself, then when you encounter things in the external world, you know what falls into alignment. And when you connect with people, you can feel their alignment and you feel your alignment. And when there's alignment between your alignments, there's radical synergy that that happens.

I couldn't agree more. You know, and it's it's interesting because if you think about it, the odds of meeting people in life, it seems, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's not It doesn't It's not a coincidence.

Right. Right. Right. Right.

There is something that's happening that's bringing people together at a specific point in time for some sort of reason. It's so cool to see like that notion of alignment and then the power and the energy of meeting someone who you feel that connection with.

Yeah.

Is one of the most energizing things in life. It is so gratifying.

When you look forward to seeing the person, you go, I can't wait to see it.

Yeah. And that's where like that's where collaboration and co-creation are so powerful and feel feel like miracles is when two people are in alignment with with each other and then in alignment with the goal that they're working towards. That's an unstoppable combination.

Yeah. The hard part is I think also this piece that we've kind of we we've touched on it a lot but in different ways. It is the communication piece. Our dear friend uh who brought us together Dr. Richard Lewis Miller.

Yes.

Who I saw yesterday. I'm very happy to know he's uh you probably already know this, but he's he's recovering well.

He's he's on his way.

He's a strong man there.

Well, he made six trips down the uh down I mean no uh skilled nursing rehab facility is any place you want to spend any time. It's he was determined, you know. He's like, "Okay, it's time for me to get out there on that wheelchair and go down the one more time. One more time." He's moving his arms, trying to move his feet, you know, because that's who he is. The guy is just amazing.

He's incredible.

But I think the notion of we go back to what we talked about before. Hey, man, turn your phone off.

Oh, digital detox. I mean, people have been talking about that. I'm sure you've done it. I haven't. It's I I've tried. I try everything. And it's it's not like cigarettes where you can just cut it out entirely because there are some uses of that phone that are needed. It's how I help try to run my business. I'm sure you understand. And so it's finding a balance. Uh I I find it hard. I I fail regularly.

Well, you bring something I think where we're going to get into partitioning.

Mhm.

You know, we've seen that in recent iOS designs. I don't use any other phone, so I don't really know what's in them, but you can see that notion of do not disturb and you can kind of partition out.

Yes.

Um and I think it's important to create that space and time. I mean, I can imagine if you're going to do uh let's imagine we decide that we're going to go out to Muir Woods and and do something.

Yeah.

Uh you don't want your phone on, right? Leave that in the car.

Yeah, for sure.

Um Yeah. So, okay, man. I feel like I could talk to you all day.

Likewise.

You know, I really appreciate you coming in and taking the time to speak with us and educate. Um tons of people will be fascinated by this. They'll just I mean eat it up. There's such a uh a thirst but a lack of like understanding how do I find this information and I think it's super important that you're getting it from the right place.

Totally. Totally.

Well, thank you for this opportunity. I really loved our conversation and getting to know you. I know this will be the first of many.

Yeah. Uh, and no, I I I think I think with psychedelics, we really are at the beginning of the beginning. And um, and that just means that there's radical possibility. There are infinite ways to get involved. There's the the field is exploding. And so, if people are listening, you know, there are so many opportunities. It's just a matter of finding what feels in deepest alignment.

I love that. It's a great way to sign off. Thanks for coming in.

Thank you so much. This is great.