The Psychology of Connection In A Disconnected World Tania LaCorte

We look at each other, we connect that way, and we feel connected. It's not even the words; it's like the energy, the vibe, and we don't have enough of it in our culture. We're all so driven. We're so tired. We're on our phones. We don't have enough of just what used to be old-fashioned connection. Helping people to arrive there by their own conclusion is key. The question will just tease something, and then people will come up with the most amazing insights. And I am like, wow, we are a storehouse of millions of minutes of information that have happened to us throughout our lives that we don't consciously remember, but they come out in our actions and our behavior. When people make these connections, it becomes like a permanent thing.

There's so much uncertainty in the world, and there's some excitement and optimism, but I think people are also scared. What does it mean? We really don't know. How do we manage uncertainty within our own selves? Our own anxieties, our own fears, our own desires to compete and dominate, or whatever our adaptation is. It's really hard when there's an unknown, and there's a lot of unknowns right now.

Dr. Tanya Lacorte, welcome to the Pathway to Peak Performance. It's so great to have you here. I was excited to have this opportunity to speak with you. Thank you, Joe. I'm so excited; I love talking to you, so I'm really excited about today. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, I love, you know, any conversation with you is a good conversation. It'll be fun. And you know what's funny is you're not my doctor, which is even to me—actually, if I was, I probably couldn't speak to you here. Exactly. I think that would be sort of confidential, HIPAA. All the rules would be followed. So here we can be friends and colleagues.

So fun to see you. As you know on the show, we have a charity that you choose, and so tell us which one yours is. I've chosen the NYU Postdoctoral Program in Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis. It's a training program in New York City. I think it's world-class; I think it's actually the best in the world. I went there 20 years ago to become a psychoanalyst. They train psychologists and other doctoral-level people to treat people in the community psychoanalytically. They try to get to the root of problems and are even interested in sociocultural problems. So I think they really make a huge impact person by person in the world. You could say it's a kind of N of one, but actually, there are ripples and ripples and ripples.

When you work with leaders or any person in the community, when you can help that person improve their parenting, their ability to be happy, their friendships, or their psychopathology in any kind of way, it changes culture. So I think this program is amazing. The people are cutting-edge, smart, and what I will say more than anything, loving and kind. And I think that's really hard to find nowadays to find all those things all together. So my heart is there. I'm on the executive committee of the relational track, which is one of four tracks at NYU, and it's just an incredible place. So I would like to fund them.

Fantastic. And you know what's interesting about that? You think about New York with the diversity there, sort of that notion of some of the aspects that you talked about in that are really key to that. I think that's really interesting. It's such a huge place, 8 million people, and yet there's people there trying to find community, trying to find connection, trying to find psychological health and happiness. It's also one of the places with the most per capita income, incredible wealth, and incredible challenges and incredible psychopathology. It's everywhere. I mean, every single person has the ability for good and evil. I think it's a program and a place where people are really interested in trying to find something and make something good in the world. No, it's terrific. Yeah, that is don't think of that happening in New York City, but it's definitely happening.

Yeah, having worked in New York, I can say I've seen it all over there. Well, not probably not everything, but you know, I often felt when I was living there, it was sort of the center of the universe from my perspective. You know, I always felt like you had to jump on the day—so much happening, the energy, it was just electric. I'm sure people in other parts of the world don't like thinking of it as a center of the universe, but for sure from an American perspective and also being from California and that's where I grew up, family's been here since the 1800s, there is some allure to New York because it's very different than the West Coast in terms of intellectual stimulation, drive, hard work, and desire for community.

Yeah, we grew up with, like, the Steinhart, right? And which is now the Academy of Sciences, right? Yeah. My uncle was on faculty there his entire—I mean, you always thought of that as like, oh my gosh, we're going to get to go on the school trip or go with your folks to that and then maybe go to the de Young and Japanese Tea Garden. But you know, that was so cool. Then I think about the Natural History Museum and, you know, Guggenheim, all the great museums in New York City that are just phenomenal. So, let's say there's room for all of it. Yeah, right? It's exciting.

I guess many people who are bicoastal have an interest in East and West, and I think that there's something to be gained in both places. My heart is here now. What do they say? My heart is in San Francisco, Bay Area. Cody, yes, exactly. But there was something—you know, I had someone who once asked me, "Why did you have to move to New York?" I felt in California, as much as I love it here and I'm super happy here, I needed more intellectual stimulation. I needed more drive. There was a kind of like—talk about peak performance—from an early age, I was driven, and I'm not kidding, pretty early. And I don't know when New York came on my radar, but I do know that after college I was like, you know, I want even more than San Francisco. I lived in San Francisco, loved it, but I wanted a little more. And now it's amazing to come back because I feel like I can have the best of both.

And you went to Cal. I did. So I mean it's like you're not going to some place where you weren't challenged. Oh, so challenged. And family legacy. So there was a lot of emotional connection there—big game, friends who were cheerleaders. Always love Cal. Stanford is in the family as well. Love that school as well. Actually, I think going to New York makes you more ecumenical about everything in California. It's really great. At the time there was a bit of a kind of split between those two schools. I really was super challenged there. I think the thing that for me I wanted more of—Cal has so many students. I was university medal finalist or something, one of 30 all with straight A's. There's just so many people. And at NYU Postdoc, you could be in a class with five people and you can have your mentor over your shoulder helping you think through things that are so complex, so nuanced, and deeply psychological. So it's a little bit more of an internal and intellectually—sort of emotional and intellectual stimulation at the same time.

You grew up in San Francisco, but you then family moved to Aptos, right? My parents grew up in San Francisco—my grandparents and my great-grandparents. So I feel like I did grow up in San Francisco, but it was more on weekends and holidays. I feel very connected to San Francisco, but I actually grew up in Aptos in the Santa Cruz mountains on the ocean side on a 15-acre farm that had been an apple farm on a piece of land that had been redwood logging. My parents loved the countryside and loved the privacy of—I mean, they were incredible gardeners. We had like an English garden in the middle of the mountains and close to the ocean. They didn't like the, let's say, social pressures of San Francisco.

So, I had a little bit of an interesting combination of serious country life. We had goats, we had chickens, tons of chickens, tons of ducks, we had a lake, we had creeks, building forts, real outdoors, all imaginative play. Just what you would think of on a country estate. But then we would come to see my grandparents in the city and have all the kind of excitement of San Francisco. So, I had a bit of a combination of both. Best of both worlds. Yeah. For me, yes. I guess everybody lives their childhood, right? But for it was very idyllic in that way. For sure. Yeah. And that connection to the grandparents being so close is so nice. That's a wonderful thing to have.

Yes. And I think they also were very loving and very family-oriented. I think I feel very connected to all of my ancestors all the way back to England. There's something—and I know many people feel connected to ancestors—there was something that was in the family culture: hardworking but loving and devoted and, I say honestly, a lot of fun. Just social and interactive. No kind of craziness, at least that I saw. It was just warm and positive. So I feel like I grew up in a little bit, not quite a bubble, but just a warm environment. And I think that helps you kind of percolate insight. It helps you kind of incubate so that when you come into the world and discover the other forces that be, you feel kind of ready.

Yeah, that's a very interesting perspective. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say it quite like that before. Well, when you speak to a psychoanalyst, you freaking get really weird comments. That's a great point, right? I mean, I think you've got a different perspective. These things have been thought about. Yeah, a little bit. Yes. All right. So, but there's a really interesting twist in your story and that's that you go to New York. Tell us about that.

You know, I think I was drawn, maybe lots of people are, but I actually think my life really changed—it's really weird how these micro-moments kind of shape you. Like I said, I was in the country. I was really kind of—I don't want to say tomboy—but kind of like making things, building things. I actually for a period of time was pursuing a kind of art where I was doing something called SRL, which is like building things out of metal. I was interested in the arts and I was an actress ever since I was 8 years old, but it was like fun, you know, did plays everyone does in school and then I got more and more interested. I had been a dancer also since third grade and I really—that was a hobby. I mean, everybody does hobbies, they play whatever their sports—those were my sports. No thought about any kind of career or anything like that.

Then I went to Cal and I studied psychology, but I also studied history. I started as a math major; really love math and calculus. Actually got an A in that class. But I think I kind of realized like, wait a minute, there's something different about me. It was also lecture hall 300 people. I think that I wasn't really thinking about things that don't exist the way that people who are really serious mathematicians. So I was like, okay, I think I've reached my level here. Ironically, every day now I think about what doesn't exist—it exists inside you. So it's sort of hard to define.

But I did acting all throughout and I had a really great mentor. He was a great director and we did plays from all over the world, things he'd written that were very avant-garde, super kind of intense, almost like the independent film of the day but live. We went to Bimbos and did these interesting shows with Nina Hagen and a few other famous people. Yeah. So, it was kind of just a weird, fun, dark, a little bit punk rock, interested in that kind of music, too. And when I graduated, he gave me acting work and I didn't expect that. I didn't expect that. So, it was some money and I moved to San Francisco and I became a professional actress and then I just thought, you know, I want more of that grit that happens in New York. It is actually a hard life, but I just moved there, became an actress, and I stayed there and actually did acting for another eight years.

So that's what brought me there. While doing that—one of the interesting things about acting, I think it's not that different from psychology and psychoanalysis, at least the way I think of it. If you're doing method acting, you're really going deep—real deep—into yourself, trying to find different parts of yourself, using those parts, growing those parts, getting to know them and using them to help inform your characters and your dialogue with your scene mates. And it was just something so captivating. It was so intense to be really thinking about parts of yourself and bringing them into the theater or into film. It was very meaningful.

So I did that for a long time. I think the business of acting is tough. I think the business of producing, directing, and writing is a little bit easier. Although I think nowadays it's tough. But you really have to have stories you want to sell and you need to kind of get into that A-list. And I think as an actor, you're a little bit more waiting for people to hire you. So I think I just wanted more intellectual stimulation.

I got super interested in yoga. I'd been a dancer professionally, and danced at the Merce Cunningham, amazing classes. And I just thought, you know, I'm interested in yoga. So I got deep in yoga, which is really spiritual—kind of another deep area. I started working at the Jivamukti Yoga Center at a really interesting time when yoga was just starting in America. A lot of famous people were there—Sting and Trudie Styler and Russell Simmons and Christy Turlington and Donna Karan and Gabby Karan. And I just was sort of facilitating that and kind of getting yoga out, practicing every day super intense, like three hours a day sometimes. So it's very physical—it's like a serious workout—but it's also spiritual.

So I think through that process I realized, you know, I want this kind of feeling all day every day. When you're acting, which I loved—we talked earlier—you're on set 15 hours a day, 18 hours a day. I did an episode of Sex in the City. Had every kind of fun, but small role. I got there at 5 in the morning. We did hair and makeup. Kind of fun. 4 hours. Lots of food on set. You're not supposed to eat it, right? And then I don't know. My scene was not shot until 2:00 in the morning. And it was fun. It was like two to three. But you're in it. Oh, I was really in it. And then I went home and it was great. But I thought, you know, that seems weird to sit here all day waiting for that one hour. I thought, you know what? I could do something every day, every minute that is bringing something to people that's moving. What I loved about film and deep TV is, you know, you can change people's lives and get them to think about something. Stories help people find things. People will be sobbing watching something so deep and they don't even know why. And that's what's so enthralling.

So I thought, you know what though, we have that capacity every day. So anyway, long story short, I decided to go back to school and get a doctorate, which had been my original plan. Takes a lot of time. That's an expensive, long thing, but I did it. I went to Rutgers and got my doctorate in clinical psychology. There you also study organizational psychology and got interested in how essentially the unconscious plays out in every single one of our lives. It plays out in politics. It plays out in business. We humans are super complicated.

I'm also a bit interested in anthropology. My aunt has been connected to the Leakey Foundation a lot and I remember watching videos about chimpanzees where they're cuddling with each other and they're sharing bananas and they're kind of really connected—and then someone steals the other bananas and they're trying to kill each other. And there was something that happened for me in that; I was like, wait a minute, we do that. The same people who can love their children, who can be connected to their husband, who can cuddle—every learning. We create words. We create murders. And I just think my mind was boggled by that. How could that be?

One little metaphor in New York—it's here too, but it's more in cities that are older, even older. Europe, if you go to like large cathedrals and you look at them, they're so beautiful and majestic. But I remember on a few of them, there's like gargoyles on the outside. And I was like, wait a minute. This is just my interpretation, but I thought, wait a minute, they're sort of saying, I think that the goodness is inside. God is inside, but the bad is outside. Let's keep the bad out. And I was like, no, no, the bad and the good is inside us. It's our job to understand our challenges, our angers, our frustrations, and our love and positivity. So I just got super interested in how do you reconcile that and how do you help people optimize hopefully the more positive aspects of themselves at least if they want to.

Wow, that is fascinating. And the thing is so true, right? We have this human nature that, left unchecked by whatever—obviously laws, but maybe religion in some way, shape or form by the notion of right and wrong. And then I think there's this goodness in us that's in everyone. Yeah, absolutely. I tend to think that goodness is greater. I agree. But I do really believe that we all have this—you know, there are some things and some people you see them fighting demons that are pretty tough. Yeah. I think it's so important who you actually spend your time with. Makes such a difference in life.

Another formative experience along that line was—and I'm sure you've had this experience—I remember having like a newborn within hours on my chest, kind of like when you sort of do that skin-to-skin calm. Laying down and just having this baby breathe, this deep belly breathe, and you just feel the most intense peace in your life. And it's like, no, we're definitely born good. You can just feel the positivity, the love, the desire to bond. There is no psychopathology here. There is no damage. I do think though our brains, our bodies neurologically are wired. We're pretty sensitive. But we have a culture that teaches us to strive hard, to work hard, to be masculine, to be feminine, to be competitive, to deal with diminishing resources. And so I think somehow along the way, whether it's through abuse or not having enough—if you don't have enough food, if you don't have enough love, if you don't have enough care—your body is going to find whatever adaptation it makes. And I think that we use whatever adaptation first works.

So some people reach out when they're babies and they have some kind of positive thing that works, and other people reach out and have some kind of more negative interaction that works. And so I think things start to go wrong for people. I think they can be corrected. That's why psychology and psychoanalysis psychotherapy works. But it becomes more complicated as we age for sure.

You know it's interesting, your charity essentially helps people to become psychologists, right? Because they can be providers. In the end, it helps all the patients. It's actually not a small number of people. We had a conversation not that long ago where we said, "Why would anybody deprive themselves of therapy?" Like that ability to actually go someplace, talk to someone without judgment and really be open and honest at a level where you can just say, "Hey, this is like a totally irrational thought, but I had it," and then you can kind of just work through it. I think it's one of the best things ever. There isn't enough supply for the demand. That's actually true. There is not enough supply. So, that is part of why these kinds of programs are trying to find more ways to provide to larger groups of people.

I think there's been a cultural shift. I think we are a little bit more open. I mean, if you think about it, those words I'm using, they're awful: psychology, psychotherapy, psychoanalysis. Almost everybody thinks of something old-fashioned, dead, old white people, men telling you what to do, lecturing you. That's not what it is now. I think it does a disservice to what it provides. But I do think there's been a bit of a breakthrough in that people have the idea of, oh, you mean someone can help me that is not invested? They're not looking for their own—they get a fee and that's it. They're there; nothing else they're supposed to get from you. They are 100% your coach, your adviser, your friend. Although, interestingly, they're not even advising. They're creating a milieu, a process in which essentially you can find your own optimal peak performance just through talking because, just as we're doing now, eye to eye, mirror neurons they call it. Human mother to child, husband to wife, lovers, friends—we look at each other, we connect that way, we feel connected. It's not even the words; it's like the energy, the vibe. And we don't have enough of it in our culture. We're all so driven. We're so tired. We're on our phones. We don't have enough of just what used to be old-fashioned connection.

You know, it's interesting. I don't know what's created this, but it is like a time where it feels—maybe it's continued to escalate—but it now feels like we're in this place and point in time where people are just looking for something to be upset about. When in actuality, do you feel like at some point in time that's going to shift back and people will be looking for what's the center? How do we find that place together that unifies us and makes us all look for the greater good?

I do really feel that. I tend to be an optimist, though. When you are an optimist, you have lenses. My lens is through a more optimistic positive lens. So I also have to be humble and say, well, I could be wrong, but it does seem we have a kind of waxing and waning in our American culture and the whole world culture. It seems like these kinds of things do come back. I can't imagine that every single person on the planet won't eventually feel some need for positivity, for gratitude. I mean, really honest, if you look around you, if you really look at the sky or you really look at the ocean or you really look at a hummingbird or a flower—I mean, it's incredible. We have so much to be grateful for. It's just that we are usually so busy. We're texting as we're walking across the street, but we're not really looking. We're not really taking in, sometimes even in a relationship. So I do hope—maybe hope is the word—I do believe it could happen.

Although I do think we can also do it just one person at a time through simple things like a conversation like we're having now. You know, where people say even a simple nice interaction with someone who's making you coffee. These kind of moments that are humane and connected where we see—in yoga we see "I see the light in you and you see the light in me." Namaste is: we are connected, we're all one. I have friends who are astronauts and they talk about the overview effect—that you look down and you realize there are no borders. It's a round circle and from above it looks kind of small. What are we doing to create so much conflict with ourselves? It's crazy, right? It's a wild thing to think that here we are in 2025 and the state of affairs is what it is.

You mentioned a number of things along the way that are interesting. And the notion of a hummingbird—I think that is such a magical creature. Oh my gosh. I was in a shop yesterday and one flew in. There were all these Christmas tree ornaments and it flew into the store and it was like going to all the little ornaments to see if it was a flower. I was like, that's incredible, and it flew out. Yeah, it's just amazing. We have a ton of them around our house.

Now you mentioned something I think is fascinating, which is you have traditional psychology where you're working one-on-one with the patient, but then you also have organizational psychology. Like when you're on a board and you're sitting there around a bunch of people, how do you keep that on track? I think it's a lot of probably using one's own unconscious. I think it's having all parts of yourself on at all the same time. Let's have the interpersonal interaction. Let's have the fun. Let's have the conversations. Let's get the data. Let's speak intellectually. What are the problems? Let's deal with the market forces. Let's deal with all of those things.

And at the same time, maybe it's just my personality at this point, but I'm also kind of noticing: what are the unconscious dynamics? The interesting thing about that is we each can use our own selves. We all have an unconscious which has amazing things to offer us—including when you said earlier having voices or thoughts that might be unbidden, where we don't really know why or where that is happening—but it also will have so much information for us. So I use—I think we all should use—my own unconscious as an instrument. It doesn't mean I'm always right. It doesn't mean I'm always thinking about my own thoughts or my own feelings. It just means I'm kind of sitting back a little bit, interested in what's happening here. And sometimes it doesn't need to be commented on at all.

But there are times when group dynamics—and group dynamics are always happening—but sometimes the group dynamic is really working in a really pro-social, productive way and you're meeting all your outcomes. But then sometimes things, as you know, can get extremely stressful. Things start to go wrong. One person is more problematic, or the whole thing is starting to fall apart. So I think you try to use your own observations and then find ways to put it into words that ideally could be received by the group. If you're lucky, you find words that work and that people can understand and get interested in. I think it requires curiosity on everyone's part and it really depends on the board. It depends on the organization.

I have been on a board where I saw massive dysfunction and I wasn't clear how it was going to get fixed. It's really a dilemma. I'm a clinical psychologist, but part of that training at Rutgers was studying some organizational pieces which was just so formative. I remember this concept that's still simple but useful called "before the beginning." What it meant was: let's think about that. The leaders, whoever the leaders are—let's think about how we want to create hopefully a healthy environment, obviously a productive environment, obviously a lucrative environment. We're not just only talking about feelings and having fun together, but we have an organization that has an intention. How do we meet that but in a healthy and solid way?

I think when it's done well from the beginning, it's a lot easier. How do you define well? I guess if the members feel that it's going well, and obviously all the other stakeholders have to also think that. When you're in a more toxic, difficult situation, sometimes it is so hard to work your way out. There are all kinds of ways. I would say sometimes people actually hire an organizational consultant who's more psychologically oriented to come in. And sometimes there can be like very magical solutions. Sometimes it means certain people leaving. Sometimes people leave by attrition because they're like, "Oh my god, I can't deal with this anymore." And what happens, I don't know—and sometimes things fall apart, but sometimes they correct themselves. But it's not that easy to figure out. That's pretty complicated.

I think that's really interesting that you brought up the organizational person who's working within teams or groups of people that are having to interact with one another and helping them to maybe go to the next level and create a more cohesive culture. I think that might start with having the solid vision and mission statement to understand: okay, what is this organization all about? Who are we here to serve? Why do we exist? Having clarity along those lines that everyone is in agreement about and that also, honestly, is realistic given the market forces, given the finances. I mean, so much goes wrong when there is a kind of crisis financially about where the funding is coming from. But if you can get all of those things in balance, especially early on, you have a lot better shot.

I think the other thing that can be really important is doing one's best to be super selective in a positive way about who you're bringing into the organization in terms of who you hire or who you have on your board. Now, obviously, sometimes you don't have choices about who's on the board given investors and things like that. But when there are choices, I think to be thoughtful and using one's unconscious and all the parts that you have available to you. And if you have some doubts or concerns—we don't always know we're right because some of our lenses are shaped by our own problematic issues from the past. So, it doesn't mean we're always right when we have a gut feeling, but when you have one, to at least acknowledge it within yourself, write it down, and find someone you can consult with. Even if it's hiring someone as just a consultant, say, "Okay, let's think about this before we bring this person in." I think that can help a lot.

Huge. That's a huge piece because one wrong hire can do so much damage so quickly. And the unfortunate thing is oftentimes organizations, especially as they're scaling, become thirsty. "I gotta have this person. I need them right now." And yes, you overlook things that you kind of know. And that's one of the things I think as a CEO you kind of come to a place where you start to say to yourself: okay, especially when you're dealing with the management team, you start to get a sense of let's slow down here. Let's not just jump on this. Having some outside counsel around that—almost like the notion of having a therapist within the company—would just—I imagine that that is a category that will really grow.

I think it really is growing. It's funny because as I said, I think something has changed. I think the idea—coaches are everywhere. Kids are getting coached in baseball, soccer. We have pastors. We have so many coaches in our culture and for some reason, maybe because of the stigma of mental health over the years, we needed to—it's maybe the gargoyle thing—we needed to think of people in therapy as like "sick" or as "disturbed." And there is a lot of problematic behavior. But an interesting thing is if you can think about it from a deep perspective, almost all even problematic behavior has some kind of meaning. There's always meaning to it. And getting to—at least in the psychology space—what is that person's deepest yearning? What are they actually looking for?

So anyway, the point is that you can use that in all kinds of settings and the idea that a coach could be a friend, it could be a senior mentor—I mean, I have so many clients who hire me, but they also have someone who maybe 50, 60, 80 who's done their business or similar businesses, almost like a parent, and they kind of just have weekly lunches or chats and it's like, "What would you do in this situation?" And so they end up with multiple networks. I think one of the challenges—one interesting thing that has changed is it used to be looked at as weak if you wanted to consult with someone to get feedback. But we are conversational people. We are social beings. We think aloud. We feel aloud. We have breakthroughs in connection.

So a CEO sitting and fretting—"Oh my god, what do I do?"—that is really just going to cause more anxiety. It's the interaction in a safe environment with someone who you really can trust. I think that's the key. Finding people who you really know have your back. Sometimes it's outside the organization, sometimes it's in. I remember once I think I told you that I was eating lunch here—I'm a psychologist, psychoanalyst—and I was speaking to the girl next to me. She was working at a big company in the Bay Area and I told her what I do and she's like, "Oh, I have an executive coach. Oh yeah, well my company says we have to have executive coaches and that's just part of our team." And it was so exciting to hear that and it's been happening more and more.

It used to almost be like people got mandated, you know, "You have to go be your executive coach, you got a low score, you're at risk of being fired." It's not that way anymore. Sometimes companies are paying; sometimes people are just paying out of pocket either for therapy or executive coaching because they just want that place where—I think such an important place—is to be able to be vulnerable. Where you can go with your deepest thoughts, your deepest fears, your deepest concerns, have conversations that are completely—and even what you said, like sometimes thoughts that you think are illogical, but actually probably some part of you is communicating with you. In that conversation, you can kind of figure out: what is it? What are those different parts of me telling? So that when you make a decision in the board or in the organization, you can go in there feeling, "Oh wow, I feel really good about this. I'm pretty sure we're going in the right direction now."

And it's so interesting—the way that people communicate. Some people just communicate naturally with one another. It's just so easy, right? It's like you don't have to try; it just works. But then there are—not to go Myers-Briggs on it, I think it's just easier to use DISC as a model—you have the people that even at a basic level it's just you don't connect. It's just sort of like it just—it's not like this. We used to call it chemistry. And I think one of the things that's really interesting about the notion of having someone inside an organization—if you're an organization on the pathway to peak performance, you really want to achieve that together as a team. There are going to be moments where it's difficult to connect with that person, but if you don't figure that out, the organization's going to suffer. So having maybe the opportunity to speak with somebody to say, "When I say this to William, how what are the ways that I could actually adjust my communication to make it more effective?"

Absolutely, it's so important. So I think where we all can start is more and more trying to understand ourselves. What is my way of communicating? That does not mean it's the right way of communicating; it means I was born with a certain temperament, a certain body, a certain family, certain siblings, certain parent, wife, whatever. The way we see the world—humans—I mean, I hate this word, it's so overused, but I won't use that word. I was going to say narcissistic, but what I mean is we see the world through our lens. That is human. When you are that infant I was describing, you are seeing the world through your lens. How could you not when you're born—you literally see it through that?

Over time, hopefully we start to—oh, there's an impact of a sibling. Oh, there's a mom. Oh, there's a dad. Oh, there's an aunt, an uncle. And we start to have more people in our world. We still are probably seeing them from our perspective. But at some point as we age, hopefully we can have enough healthy bumping together that we start to realize: oh, that person sees things differently than I do. And when there is a clash—one of my psychoanalytic mentors used to call it "chafing," kind of like when that shirt is bothering you—people can bother you the way they talk and sometimes people hate each other or they dislike each other because we're different. We just clash. And so sometimes it's a sign we shouldn't be with each other. But if we're in an organization, we have to be there. It's like a family, right?

Most people are not just quitting their jobs suddenly. They might have stock. They might have families depending on them. If you can leave a toxic relationship, that's great if it's truly toxic. But many relationships aren't as toxic as they appear unless you only think of it from your perspective. So, it's trying to think about or get advisement on: how might that person be thinking and can we find a common goal? Can we find a common language? Can we find some kind of appreciation?

A dog trainer I know helped our dog a lot. Very anxious girl. Barks like crazy. Seems mean. People thought she was so aggressive; maybe she should be put down. No, she is anxious, anxious, anxious. And I remember that person saying just like humans, all personality traits are in puppy litters. All personality traits that exist in humanity are—I guess evolutionary if you believe in that—certain things came to be for certain reasons. So we all have roles: an anxious person, a controlling person. And also we all have things that we're overcompensating for. There's a word in psychology called dynamic, which is sort of like a seesaw, right? Someone can be really egotistical and really braggy, but actually inside they're super vulnerable and weak. Most people kind of know that one, but there's many other dynamics where someone comes up one way, but actually deep inside they might not even know the exact opposite is true. Almost always the exact opposite is true because we have polarities even within ourselves.

So if we can find some way—I guess the word is empathy—to try to see each other as human, not as people that we should attack. Try to say, okay, wait a minute, this is another human. This is another soul on this planet who I need to find a way to work with. Let me just see if I can try to understand. I think it starts a lot with asking questions and listening to the answers, not just interrupting and saying, "Oh, this is my perspective." Because pounding each other with "my perspective" is never going to work. It's hold your perspective in mind, but really find out what theirs is.

Maybe they say something—I have cousins with very different political views. And I kind of really enjoy hearing all of it because I hear all of it and I'm like, it actually all makes sense. You know, they're not doing it in a hurtful way or harmful way to each other, but actually it all makes sense in its own way. So, I feel like the same is true in organizations if we can find ways of really thinking together. Now, who then makes the decision about how to move forward with which plan? Probably some compromises need to be made. Some things that maybe we agree that we might do it this way this time, but let's kind of understand that this person is giving in a bit. Maybe in the future we can have some—let's have an overall—things connect to each other.

Often humans think about just this interaction right now. I mean I think about this five minutes and I don't connect it to the beginning and I don't connect it to the end. People are often missing that what someone is reacting to is something that happened seconds before, hours before, years before, months before—sometimes in their own history. And so you say, "Oh hey, Father," yes, but maybe he's mad at you because you did something that was actually disrespectful that you don't even realize you did. So, it's actually being curious. If you're reacting to me in a way I don't like, instead of pounding you, it's like, "Wait a minute. Could I have done something?" Maybe it wasn't me, but did something happen that has set this person off? Let me think about the total before, middle, and after about what might be going on and be asking if I really can't think of it on my own.

Oftentimes I find myself talking to people who I feel are just waiting to talk. They're not hearing anything. They're still locked on; they only see it as this conversation is an extension. "I have to go through a gap period in order to continue my point." When you're dealing with someone like that, what do you do? It's a good question. I think it's a common thing. I don't want to pathologize it. I think that oftentimes probably people haven't been listened to enough, so they're trying to make a point to be listened to. Or in the opposite, they're always listened to, right? So they always want to be in charge.

If it were my patient and I'm doing something in a private setting, not in public, I might just literally genuinely say, "You know, that's so interesting. I just said this and this, but I kind of have a feeling that you were just waiting to say something and I might be completely wrong, but what was that like? Does that sound true to you or what was happening on your side?" And I would want to know. I can think of someone who would say, "Oh, yeah. I was just waiting for you." I can think of other people who wouldn't even have noticed that. That's what I like about the one-on-one work: you can create a safe environment if there's enough history there. You can ask genuine questions—not gotcha questions, nothing like that. Really like, "I feel like I noticed this, but I could be wrong. What was it like for you? What do you think is going on there?"

Curiosity and Self-Reflection

Wow. What a breakthrough moment, too, to find out like, "Oh, I am actually doing that." Some people are very receptive. I was actually doing something earlier where people were saying that sometimes people are like, "I'm doing what? What? I'm doing that?" I think though that's a gift. It can be embarrassing; it can feel kind of humiliating, especially if someone has been doing it for 30, 40, 50 years. Especially as they've been doing it in leadership positions. Very hard to realize that. I think it's a good sign though when someone can do that. There are other people who come back very angry, very militant: "No, that was not what I was doing."

But I think in a more private setting, there's a little more space, especially if—and I might ask it in a way that—"Have you ever experienced that yourself? Has there ever been anyone that has been like that with you, or what's your observation of that in other people?" And the other thing I would probably be doing is saying, "You know, that's very common; lots of people do that." Because almost everything that humans do, millions of other—literally billions of other people—are doing the same. It's making the whole thing psychologically neutral. There's no gotcha, there's no criticism, there's no negativity there. It's all about just being curious. I'm curious, allowing the person hopefully to be curious in themselves, to have some reflection and to realize, "You know, I did feel kind of anxious. I kind of felt like if I didn't say it, I was going to forget. So I was trying to say it." That can happen.

There are all kinds of reasons that it might be, but it's lucky if someone says, "Oh, wow. I didn't realize that." So what I'm trying to do is find like a small gap where someone can get curious about it. Even if in that moment it didn't feel right to them, it can just maybe reside there as a potential thought so that maybe later on if someone else does it, they're like, "Oh, that person interrupted," or "Wait, I think I was doing it." So it's just creating a conversation over time really that starts with micro-moments like that and it can expand.

Ultimately, what I would be trying to do is help people have more choices of ways to behave. If there's a moment where it really makes sense, there are times where you really need to get it out. But maybe there are other times that it might be good for you actually to listen. Maybe you could learn something from the people who are trying to talk to you. That's a great point. Helping people to arrive there by their own conclusion must be the most impactful. 100%.

This is why I'm not in the business of giving advice. People often ask me, "Do you give business advice?" I mean, I'm not a CEO except for my own small business, but many coaches come at it from that and they're going to be much more advice-giving and I'm sure it's very, very useful. I am very different. I'm trying to create a process where I'm super actually curious. It's really people think that I'm behaving out of my profession; I'm like, no, I think I'm behaving out of my personality. It's just that I'm genuinely curious. I don't do this everywhere I go because that would just be freaking weird, you know? But if I'm hired to do this and I'm being paid to do it, I love it. And it's really nice when people are receptive to it.

But it's even better—someone might on their own entirely come to it without the question, or the question will just tease something and then people will come up with the most amazing insights and I'm like, "Wow, you know, wow, tell me more, how—tell me about that." And that's what's incredible about us. We are a storehouse of millions of minutes of information that have happened to us throughout our lives that we don't consciously remember, but they come out in our actions and our behavior. And so, but if you have a moment where you realize something about your own behavior, it might link to something and it's super useful to people because they're coming to it on their own. And it's much better neurologically—we talk applied neurology all the time now—but it really is brain-based. When people make these connections, it becomes like a permanent thing. You know, if someone tells you to take out the garbage, how useful is that? But if you have some insight yourself of like, "Wow, I really feel like I want to contribute to my household; let me do something that makes an impact," it feels different.

Yeah, I mean the dynamics of relationships are so incredible, whether that's in business or personal. I think what's really fascinating is this notion that you're unlocking levels along the way. I think that's the Tony Robbins thing—I met Tony the first time when I was 15 years old at super camp; it was super cool, I loved it and made me realize some things about my life. But I also think this notion of just, "Hey, instantaneously I'm going to just shift this entire thing and then I'm just in a totally different place," right? I think there's also this notion of self-discovery and finding out what's behind—now I'm just paraphrasing what you said—but that notion of like, "Hey, maybe incrementally I can learn something more about myself and become better at a host of things."

And I think again goes back to that: who are you around, who are you associating with? Because a rector at our church said—I was having a person was on my nerves and you know, well-intentioned person, but just the style in which that person communicates somewhat abrasive to me. What did you call it? Chafing. And you know, she said, "Just remember, God loves him as much as he loves you." And I think if we could just come to the world with that—I was like, "Whoa, that was a major breakthrough." That's a tattoo, right? You just put that tattoo and I can't ever get that off. There's no laser that's taking it off. Great lesson.

Yeah. What a beautiful moment. I've been thinking—you brought it up earlier—kind of what has led to what's happening in our culture. And maybe every—I did "Bye Bye Birdie" when I was in junior high as an actor; I played Kim McAfee and there was a song: "What kids, what's the matter, what kids do today?" So maybe every culture thinks that every—as they're thinking that things are messed up. So maybe I'm just thinking it through that lens. But I do think we used to have more positive cultural influences, at least the intention.

Now, many people will fault religion. There are many ways in which religion currently and in the past has created so much psychopathology, guilt, problems, wars. So I don't want to idealize it, but I do think there were settings in which lessons like that were taught. And I do think schools even used to teach not necessarily morals, but like being good, being fair, sharing. I think schools sometimes now are almost having to let kids cheat because they just can't manage what's going on with the phones. So I feel like actually it might be one of the reasons that coaching and other kinds of mentorship are becoming more—even workout people are having the workout gurus. I think it's happening more because we've had a bit of a cultural deficit of moral mentors and leaders that I think lead with love and kindness and lessons.

So that's a beautiful moment, right? That you've chosen to stay in that world that other people have not and that there was a lesson there that was—and whether it's God or nature or whatever—the idea that we are the same. Another person, another soul. We're chafing, don't particularly like that person, but we are in the community; we can find a way to get along and not feel as triggered by each other. And it sounds like it softened you immediately.

Yeah, it's so funny that you mention—we were just talking about Tony Robbins and my business partner sent me a video today and it was Tony Robbins talking about triggers and he said, "Interesting, no one else can trigger you, only you." It always feels like the "other," right? It's the other person, but it's always the other—but it goes right back to what you said, right? It's like, what's inside of me? The dynamic of what's going on. But it does take a moment; you have to—one of the things I love to help people do is just slow down. We're so fast. We notice the trigger because what happens? We're physiologically aroused. We're pissed. We feel irate. We feel totally justified. We're like, "What a jerk. And I have all the reasons that that person what they did is the issue."

We don't slow down and say, "Wait, why am I getting so triggered?" That's an interesting point. I mean, let's say even the person is a jerk. Okay. But why am I getting triggered? What is it in my body? Am I stressed? Am I sleep-deprived? Did my father talk like this? Did my boss upset me? Are my kids stressing me out? Like, am I stressed about the holidays? Let me get introspective because, in the end, you only have control partly of yourself. And so does your coach. Either you, or you in the dyad that you're in, or in the team that you're in. We cannot control what the world is doing or what the other people are doing. So we have a much better chance of success financially, happiness-wise, if we can find the ways to make the changes within ourselves—the way we see things and even in the relationship.

Not saying to let people abuse us. I think that's the other thing. There are times when things happen that are just definitely not acceptable and then that's a different reaction. We have to maybe have a more boundaried reaction to that, a more protective one: "I won't either be in relationship with that person or won't allow that to happen again." But we're still working on our own trigger. It's just that the trigger might say, "Oh no, this is the answer."

I remember someone once asking me, "How do I deal with a crazy person?" That word is overused and underused and I said honestly the best way to deal with a crazy person is just not be in reaction, not be in relation. Leave the relationship if you can. Some settings we're in, we cannot. So how do we detoxify the situation, set boundaries to protect ourselves, and then I think the other thing is working on a lot of self-regulation. So understand that you got triggered, but don't just say, "Oh, you're such a jerk for getting triggered." Maybe I need to do something to help myself calm down to relax and maybe I really am justified in my reaction.

So it's a lot of self-regulation, but not using denial. Not saying "ah, get rid of that emotion." Actually, I said this to you before: to me, honestly, feelings are one of the most important things that we can use. Now, we don't want the whole world governed by feelings—sometimes that happens and it's very problematic—but feelings, at least within a human and a culture and an organization and a board, are maps to what's going on. So I think it's really important to identify the feeling, notice what it is—grief, shame, anger, guilt, embarrassment, happiness—try to understand what's connected to it, and obviously then try to manage it, regulate it. You know, do your meditation, do your workouts, eat healthy food, get amazing sleep, get sleep trackers to help you sleep, do anything you can do to keep your body as regulated in a positive way as you can. And then when you get those kind of feelings, they can be guides to how to make decisions, to how to handle because the way you handle being triggered by one kind of thing is going to be completely different from how you should handle a different kind of trigger. It's very complex interpersonal interactions that need to happen to manage them in the interpersonal space.

Such an incredible piece right there because you said it before: there can be many things happening, right? And so our ability to be introspective when, "Hey, I've got these numbers that we've got to make," or "We've got an issue with this," the ability to be introspective and truly come to your center, finding what's really true, trying to empathize with others to understand where they are coming from. You know, we think about this Pathway to Peak Performance—it's an iterative process. Some people get there early, some people take a lifetime to get to that spot.

You have had such a fascinating career here and you're doing such incredible work. What do you feel is like the next big thing for you? Are you thinking that way? How are you processing the world today? I think two things, honestly. What I'm doing right now—and this sounds so simple—is I'm honestly just enjoying life. I really love what I do. I don't do it 80 hours a week anymore. I think that for so many—getting a doctorate is so much time, so much opportunity cost in terms of finances—it was so expensive, time lost, so many hours you do. And I loved all of it; I mean, really, it was exciting. Acting is pretty much the same kind of thing. So there was a lot of front-end investment. Moving—that takes a lot of time.

So I think, honestly, loving where I live, loving the town, doing my yoga and my Pilates and F45, working out almost every day. I eat super healthy, do a lot of cooking, go buy organic food. I really practice what I preach. I've been interested in peak performance like you, I mean, since a very young age. So I really live those things and I'm really enjoying things. So I think the enjoyment of life and I think that I've sort of prepared myself that career-wise I'm probably going to just do this forever. I remember meeting people who do what I do—they're working until they're 95 or 90 or 80. Not saying everyone has to do that, and some people really want to retire, and maybe I would. But I don't work crazy hours; I work hours that really work so that I can do all my other things.

I think the next phase is continuing my individual work with people. I'm really interested in board work. I think it's been super exciting to be on the boards that I've been on. I love—get a little chill—you know, I have a family, some of my old antique family is in big businesses, so I've always been fascinated by business. Didn't go into larger businesses, but I love being part of them in terms of working with CEOs, working with founders—many of them are in tech—and doing board work has just been so exciting to be part of building a company and building teams that I'm hoping are healthy and happy but also really successful. I truly believe in my heart—some people think I'm too optimistic, but I don't think so—I really think it's possible to have ultra-successful businesses that also create happy clients and happy executives and happy teams.

And I think that too often—whether it's through American bootstrap mentality or even a little bit masculinity, not to down it—there's just a way in which competition or smoking, drinking, eating too much, competing, fighting, arguing, mistreating people, being a bully—it's just been a little bit too much the way that business was done. And I think it's really possible to make really successful organizations and people at the same time. I don't think the organizational success has to be at the expense of the people within it.

In listening to you, I'm sort of taking this in. There's so much to that. It occurs to me that the primary driver of some of those things is rooted in fear—like a real, "Hey, I have to perform, so much riding on things." And that manifests itself in lots of different ways. But I really do believe we're evolving. We're seeing a whole new generation. I look at some of the young people—I look at my son who I think is really doing great work, I look at my daughter who wants to be a psychiatrist, studying psychology right now. And I think we're in a really pivotal time in the world. It's important for us to figure out how to really communicate better and actually really care about one another because it's really clear that there are some forces at work that are—may or may not be great for everyone.

I think we really need the younger generation. I think it's wonderful to hear that you're inspired by the younger. I think there's many kids who are so inspired and so excited. I think we also have done a bit of a disservice to some of them because I do think some people got so upset about global warming and the economy and some of—so I think there's kind of both happening. I hope the kids can use it to be inspired to say: look, let's make this good. Let's make everyone be successful and accomplished and satisfied.

Yeah, I think that there are these opportunities to live a life of service and success and take things to another level thinking about the bigger picture. It almost feels like generations before us were really thinking about what they were leaving behind, what they were creating. They went through a period of time where—I don't know, maybe it's just me—it didn't feel like anybody was really thinking. I'm sure it was happening, I'm sure there was a very philanthropic thought process around certain things, but it seemed like it wasn't as great as it once was. It feels like we're coming back to that now where people are really thinking: "Hey, what is the legacy that I'm going to leave and how am I going to actually do something that's going to really improve the world?" Which is super exciting, especially now as things are really changing. The world is changing so rapidly via AI and robotics.

Oh my gosh. And you know, one of the things I was just thinking is that there's so much uncertainty in the world and there's some excitement and optimism, but I think people are also scared. What does it mean? We really don't know. And I think one of the things that certainly executives and all leaders have to manage—but so does everyone: how do we manage uncertainty within our own selves, our own anxieties, our own fears, our own desires to compete and dominate or whatever our adaptation is? It's really hard when there's an unknown, and there's a lot of unknowns right now.

Yeah, I think I said something to you not that long ago: anxiety seems to be the net effect of massive uncertainty, right? 100%. It really is. I think so. So I think that—I mean, there's been generational change all the time, right? The internet—I don't know if TV created anxiety, but it probably did in some kind—telephone, all of these things. But this is a huge one and actually, if you really think about it, at least from a consumer perspective, seems so sudden. Everyone knows about AI and it's been around for a long time, but it seems like really within like a couple years it's really taken off.

And that's the rate at which machine learning happens—it's just so much more quick than our neurons. One of the things I will say is that because we are neurologically based—our brains are always slower to grow, to mature, to change. That's part of the reason that many things require, whether it's building muscle or doing work in psychotherapy, because it takes a long time to get to where we are. So, if we're going to change, that also takes a long time and machine learning is different. It's much quicker, which is why it's so successful. But it means our adapting to it can be very overwhelming for a lot of people.

Yeah, I mean you think about it—ChatGPT, who thought that they would put on 100 million users in 2 months? It was the original number. There was a statistic we were showing the other day: it was 55% of people were using some sort of native app in their phone different than Chrome or Safari, even though those AI overviews exist in those. The notion that we're really having these ongoing dialogues and as we move into agentic AI where that agent knows everything about you and you're having this dialogue going back and forth—and the way that we experience the world or get information, it's a long way from the Encyclopedia Britannica. Well, my aunt recently passed away, so I'm going through all of the books. And I mean, it's literally all we just donated—I don't know who's going to take them—but it was kind of fun to read through those books, but yes, it's very different. Yeah, it is a totally different world.

Well, your Pathway to Peak Performance is a very interesting one—one where you seem to have like an intuitive vision for your path. You followed your path to get to the place where you knew you needed to be is what it feels like. It was definitely an internal listening to myself. I think it helped. I think I grew up in a very loving family. I think I grew up in the country which maybe was a little bit like I said, a bubble, but it was so positive and so beautiful that I think I just naturally—my own creativity and excitement could kind of flourish. Just interested in dance, became a cheerleader. So I think it was just a positive environment.

Oh, I do remember one little thing: I got a B+ in book reports in third grade and that—I can't explain to you—but that just did something to me where I was like, "Oh, you know," and it just put a little bit of a fire and I think I just always loved learning. I felt very inspired by my grandparents and great-grandparents so much. People for multiple generations had gone to Cal before and had been in big business. One grandfather was a physician. Another one was a mortician. So they were kind of in the medical services industry and then the others were in business. So I think I just felt motivated maybe partly by that environment.

And then actually at Cal I did post-bac research, which is not really common, but I just wanted to study psychology and I ended up learning about Csikszentmihalyi, who was the person who originated the flow concept. So I was I guess 18 or 19 when I started learning about that. Oh, I also started studying transcendental meditation at Berkeley. So I learned to do TM and I did that for like 20 or 30 years of my life—like 20 minutes every morning and every night. Now I kind of use my mantra as I want to.

But there was that and then I ended up with another professor. This professor was so amazing; he taught Psych 1. That lecture hall was like 400 kids in there. I remember going down to him once and asking a question. He says, "Well, do you want to walk with me after class and talk for an hour?" And there was nothing creepy going on; this is a completely legit guy, got all kinds of teaching awards. And he would just walk with students probably because he wanted to walk, so he just mentored me, asked me to join one of his study groups, and we were studying intrinsic motivation. I mean, I was already intrinsically motivated, but we had a whole study around: how do you understand why people are motivated?

And I still don't know. I think that there's a lot that can happen. I think parenting can really help if you reward kids just with love—not even like "I love you for being a good person," but just if they feel that there's a positive thing. Doing chores, working on a farm, or having a job where you're kind of interacting with the world with others—family, parents, jobs—and getting that feedback that you are making an impact in the world. I think it's important. I have had clients over time who didn't have as much of that intrinsic motivation and I still don't know—are some people more wired that way? It might be just a neurological difference. Some people, I think, who've had trauma are more wired to be successful? Some people who've been in safer environments sometimes? So, I don't know the full answer, but I'm interested in helping individual people figure it out—what helps them get more motivated.

I think feeling good helps a lot. I think when people don't feel well, they do all kinds of adaptations: drugs, alcohol, smoking—even caffeine or sugar, whatever. So many things could be done—porn, where they're just trying to feel better, but it's not really making them feel better. So, I think there's more room for motivation when you just kind of are in your natural healthy state.

Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things that occurs to me in your Pathway to Peak Performance is this notion of feeling safe enough to go out and make connections. Connections were a part of your pathway to peak performance. The courage to go in an auditorium in that setting, walk wherever you were—and Cal has some of those pretty steep stairs—go all the way over and actually say, "Hey, I'm interested in this." And to be received that way instead of being brushed off with, "Read this." I'm so lucky he was receptive because you can imagine all the other students who ask for help and they get kind of shamed by teachers, coaches, professors and they don't even know what's happening. So that was a lucky moment that I was brave enough and that he was receptive enough.

Yeah, I mean that can be make-it-or-break-it moments, right? Also, let's imagine someone who didn't have the background, had that intrinsic motivation, mustered the courage to go, but then was rebuffed or rejected. That might be the first and last time somebody does that. Although you kind of wonder—I hope not, but I do know that, for example, if I get a referral for someone who's looking for a psychologist for whatever the purpose is, I take that referral so personally. And it's often not for me; it's me trying to find a colleague and I cannot tell you how seriously I take it because you just don't know. To your point, sometimes someone is asking for help or just expressing interest in something, and if it doesn't go well—it's so tenuous.

So I do think it's really important for us to treat those moments like gifts and the fact that some professors still are able to stay connected and say, "Wow, this is great, my job is to help students learn." But I do think people can shut down, others can be shaming of others, and it—I hope for people it doesn't. I would say that was another thing: perseverance. If you come across someone who doesn't see you accurately—I mean, this happens all the time in work settings and so many clients of mine have been paired with terrible managers and they come in feeling like it's really all them. Sometime people think it's only the manager, but anyway, we get mis-seen all the time.

There's something in the world like a lens; it's called transference. It means I could walk down the street and I'm going to see you—barely even know you—and have a completely different reaction than another person, and it doesn't mean that either one of us is right. So if you are taking that "I am right" or "this person is right," don't do it. Especially if your parents mis-see you, or your coaches, your teachers—just you have to keep going and say, "Okay, I got to find a setting that really sees me and really values me and I got to bring my best." You have to be there, you got to be on time, you got to do some hard work, you have to produce and be yourself—be your authentic self, by the way.

And then keep looking and keep going. Don't get shut down. Don't get deflated if you feel like you've had one failure or one person turning you away. It's not fair to give that much power to one or a few people. That is a really powerful statement. A series of interactions in a period of time doesn't define who you are. And it happens socioculturally. Look at all the things that have happened with sexism, with racism, with trans fear—so many people end up having such strong negative reactions and they don't really know the other person. And that's what it is: we pigeonhole each other because we're trying to make quick—it's all about safety if you think about it. You judge someone quickly because back in the day, is that person trying to murder me or are we going to get along?

So it's natural that we judge each other quickly, but I feel like we miss so much, both in me mis-seeing you and you being mis-seen and vice versa. So it's really important, I think, to keep going, know who you are, and don't just "fight" racism or "fight" being mis-seen or "fight" sexism, but go to settings where someone's like, "Wow, you're really amazing. Let's build something together. Let's create a team together." We have a better chemistry, less chafing, we're more likely to build a team that works together.

And when you can do it de novo—to really say, "Hey, we're going to set out to do this and do it the right way from the very beginning"—is pretty powerful. You suggested that to me; if it's possible. I mean, obviously, I was saying that because you were talking about the situations in which it's kind of untenable and there's not always a good solution. So I was saying yeah, if you can do it better from the beginning, but many times we can't go backwards. This is where I can have some wishful thinking when I'll meet with an organization—think, "Oh gosh, I wish we'd been back there," but it doesn't really help. We have to be in the moment and really make some decisions about what to do now. But I do think if you can be conscious going in, you're more likely to be able to—the problems are going to be less problematic probably as they come. Humans, we create problems everywhere we go. That's partly normal. We just don't want the unfixable huge problems that really waste so much time and so much money.

It's so true. Well, it has been phenomenal to have you in. I've really enjoyed this. I've learned so much. And gosh, it's amazing. I often go back and I watch these episodes sometimes five times. And every single time I see a different version of the episode. You know, you hear it differently. And I think so much of what you said today gives us a shape to how that actually—or a format to how that actually happens.

Thank you so much. Honestly, the fact that you do that—you're so gifted at this. It's really super impressive. You're such a great interviewer, but you have great guests and it really is just a testament to who you are. You're such a deep thinker and introspective. I mean, it's incredible what you are able to produce in your life as well. I hope you are taking care of yourself. It's incredible what you're able to do. So, that's amazing that you are learning as you're creating this beautiful venue for your listeners. So, thank you for having me. Ah, thank you. Good to see you. You, too.

Hey, thanks everyone for watching the show. Please remember to like, comment, and subscribe. It really helps us out here at the channel, and share the video with someone who might be interested in supporting the charity that our guest mentioned in the episode. Thanks again. We'll see you soon.