Why Aiming for Second Place Actually Helps You Win - Dr. Hannah Coffin

I was balancing, you know, like 80 mile weeks with a full course load. Uh, three years of PT school. It's a lot of work. You just are in this flow state with running where I'm not really paying too much attention to anything that's going on around me. I have no idea what's going on in the grand stands, but I do kind of look ahead and I'm like, "Oh yeah, we've made some ground on her." That notion of really mental discipline and staying in the game, the mindset. Nobody is self-made. And anybody who says that they are, I I would take that with a grain of salt. If you can find mentorship from anyone, that's like huge. The path may not be linear. Mine by no means is linear, and I'm still not done, but I do feel like where I am now is where I should be. I feel it in my bones that I've broken many times. I know that what I'm doing now, I can have a truly positive impact on clinicians and patients to make sure that we're delivering that care.

You know, one of the things that's amazing to me is that we still have people who have yet to subscribe to the show over 90%. And yet, you watch the show on a regular basis. If you go ahead and hit the subscribe button now, it really helps us immensely here at the channel to bring you the quality guests that you continue to want to see. And we're so pleased that you're enjoying the show. Thank you all so much for your comments, your likes, your shares, uh, and spreading the word of the pathway to peak performance. It helped us to get sponsors like K4 from Ketone Aid. And so I want to thank Frank Yos, the CEO of Ketone Aid, for sponsoring the Pathway to Peak Performance. This is a product I use every single day. It's a phenomenal, phenomenal product. There isn't anything else out there quite like this that I'm aware of, and I truly believe in it. And if you want to get free shipping on this, go ahead and go to ketoneade.comjk and you'll get free shipping on your order. Thank you so much, Frank, for doing that. All right, let's get on with the show. I hope you enjoy it. Dr. Hannah Coffin, welcome to the Pathway to Peak Performance. So great to have you here with us today. So we talked and your charity is... My charity is the movement network. It's a coalition of doctors of physical therapy who are helping serve underserved and uninsured uh communities.

Oh wow. That's fantastic. Yeah. I mean a lot of people I mean it's uh it's an incredible it's an incredible discipline which we're going to talk about a lot. But before we do that uh our friends at Ketone Aid Frank Yosa the CEO um is the first sponsor of this show and um it's a product that I actually use frequently. um fuel workouts, fuel cycle rides, all that good stuff. And it's really it's really interesting. Now, the one thing I want to tell you is this doesn't taste like, you know, you say ketone aid, you might think it's like Kool-Aid, but it's not. It's not like that at all. So, I'm going to give you an option. Okay. Um and the option, you're going to try one of these, right? I'm I'm excited. I'm I I know about caffeinating before a workout, and I know you've talked about these before with me, you know, talking about just exercising and fueling for it. So, I'm I'm really curious about this.

Okay. So, that workout that we did the other day in the gym. Yeah. Right. Where it was supposed to be a caffeine free. Mhm. Well, it turns out that there was a 200 mgram caffeine capsule. I remember that you were bouncing. I was like, and I was looking at my heart rate. I was like, what is going on? 145. I mean, I'm never breaking like, you know, usually it's like 118, 120, 121, somewhere in there. And then maybe you peak out at 130. I'm at 145. I'm like, what is going on? I couldn't You would have thought we were like almost hit training with that. So totally exactly and it was this this K4 Mhm. if you drink enough of this with caffeine, it like triples the caffeine amount. It's it's insane. So like a lot of I don't really know that much about these other companies that are out there. I do know that this is the the Vax Esther. So that this is like uh the one that um I was originally introduced to by Dr. Seeds and I think is the one that you know I've just come to love it.

I personally I love the flavor of it. A lot of people are like, "Oh gosh, that's kind of hardcore." He likes to actually warn people at a time. He doesn't want, you know, give anybody the shock value. So, this one, K2, is basically the same thing as K4, but it's got more water in it. Okay. So, it's diluted. It's Yeah. More diluted. It's less of a flavor. Uh, this guy is a ketone shot. So, it's half of this bottle. I'd take half and you take half. Got it. And then these these are hard ketones. This is a trip. They actually have a product that you actually drink. It's like a selzer. Mhm. And you literally, it's like you feel totally relaxed. Mhm. Okay. Uh without any alcohol or I guess it's some form of you know ketone alcohol, but it's not like you know anything that would give you a hangover. And so uh pretty interesting product. I don't think we should do that one before the uh the podcast, right? It sounds intense, right? Yeah. It's probably not a great idea. So what's your choice? Do you want to try out the uh the super hardcore or do you want to go for the ketone shot? Uh let's let's go let's go with the shot. Let's go middle ground. Okay, middle ground it is. So um am I going to be able to get this with my nails? Yeah, puncture it. Okay, so Oh, it tastes good. Wow. It's way it's like it's uh Okay, so I guess you got to figure out sort of how to measure it out. But there you go. Cheers. Right. Cheers to you. All right. Oh, that's not bad at all. Oh, no. Oh, that's that's that tastes like pinina colada kind a little tropical. Yeah, I I detect that. A little coconuty. Yeah.

Easy. This is the I'm going to give you a bottle of this. Okay. As a gift for coming to uh to do this. Um you're going to like this. I mean, as an endurance athlete, one of the things I think is really interesting about, you know, is fueling not with caffeine, not with uh you know, glucose or uh trying to do it that way. It's really fueling with ketones. I found that that has been a really interesting experience for me and uh in using it o off and on over time. No, I'm I'm see the literature coming about for uh endurance athletes. So, I'm I'm curious to try something new to, you know, prefuel my run. Yeah. No, I mean, it should be should be good stuff. All right. So, you know how the story of the show works. We go all the way back, talk about your history and um how you you came up and how you wound up becoming a doctor of physical therapy, which is such an interesting career and then you can tell us the twist and turn that came from that. Yeah. All right. Awesome. Let's do it.

Yeah. Going way back. Okay. So, I mean, I'm born and raised in a small town in Pennsylvania. I'm one of three. I'm the oldest child. Um grew up in a loving home. never never had to need anything. But I don't think we were considered to be wealthy, but I mean I was privileged that my parents had me and my siblings involved in uh club sports. Um anything that you know like was interesting, but for me like from the earliest memories that I have from being an athlete was always going to be running. Um just being like 6 years old, I remember like being on the playground challenging other kids to race and like it was just such a rush. would always win like racing to part of the playground and didn't get involved in uh organized sports until like I want to say like 11 or 12 years old which by most standards people would say is like late for a lot of kids but I mean my parents were just so busy with work and they had a long commute and so like and we were involved in piano and so it was at a point where it's just like too much going on for them and so we had to drop piano and then it's like okay you know I wanted to play soccer really badly and so got involved in club soccer.

At the time they did not have a spot for me on the age group of the girls team and so like I would practice with them constantly. My parents were taking me every day of the week to go to practice. Um but I was put on the boys team of my same age group and so that was like okay well you know this isn't what I wanted but you this is a U12 team. Yeah this was like U12 or U13. Um, and it was tough cuz you like you have to hang with the boys and like they don't want to get beat by a girl. But I think it made me better and like again like my speed was my weapon like and when I was on the girls team like nobody could like touch me and so I would always be first to the ball. So it was good experience getting to play with the boys because they're a lot more aggressive especially not wanting to get beat by a girl. And then finally like they did have a spot open up for me on the girls team. um and ended up growing out of that team. And I have I had switched to teams farther and farther away to get more and more exposure to college coaches because that was, you know, the end goal for me. I wanted to play at the highest level. I wanted to go division one and I my parents saw that, you know, we need to be playing for teams that were going to the big showcases at Disney, Vegas, Surf Cup, um all of those. It wasn't I was not going to get that with my local team.

Yeah. Your local high school team wasn't probably good enough to actually make that cut. No. High school I I mean high school I only played three out of my four years because my high school team wasn't even... No. No one's coming to watch my high school team play. My high school was really known for field hockey. My my high school they were no like my best friend and like so many girls from my school they went to play on for field hockey. But my my school, we rarely put out athletes, especially division one. So, you're from Scranton, Pennsylvania? I tell people Scranton because that's the closest town and most people I can identify with the office. Um, but I'm from a town called Mountaintop. So, all within that kind of Scranton Wolsbury area. Exactly. Yep. So, I mean, soccer is not like the major sport there, is it? No. Yeah. growing up here, you know, I coached soccer for many years and um what I would say is it's like you see kids burning out playing too much when they're younger. By the time they get to U12, they're burned out from playing uh upper house or select. Yeah. Uh club and I always think it's like you never really know what kind of soccer player you've got until somebody's in high school anyway. And if they're burned out by that time, they don't want to play anymore. You know, my own son, he switched. He wanted to play football and I was like there was nothing I could do about it. It was like it was over. Anyways, I'm glad. I think football had more camaraderie. It's kind of interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I mean getting getting burned out like I I am really shocked that it didn't happen to me because I mean once I was like getting deeper involved in club I was also involved in ODP which I'm sure you've heard of Olympic development program. Um, and so like it was just multiple teams and I was going every weekend, but I mean in addition to soccer, I was doing cross country in the fall for my high school, but running was purely to stay in shape. And then I did swimming in the winter also to stay in shape for soccer. And then in the springtime, it was the years that I did high school ball and then also track. um which you know did and then I actually did a year of uh kicking for football in my senior year of high school in the fall. That's so funny. That is wild, right? I mean that Well, you probably had that foot that could actually make it happen. Yeah. Yeah. So, it was it was a great experience. Out of curiosity, what was your longest field uh field goal? I never got to make a field goal while in uh high school. We would always go for it on fourth. So, it was nothing but pats. But in practice without pressure, I think it was a 43. But it's so different under pressure. Oh yeah. Completely different. Still 43 yards is a that's a good kick. Yeah. I mean for a high school kid. Yeah. I mean I think that would get you a scholarship to just about anywhere you wanted to go probably if you were kicking that in the game. Yeah. And making it um All right. So you wind up uh making a D1 team. Mhm. And tell us about that.

Yeah. I had it narrowed down to three schools. I had um and a lot of my decision-m when picking a school was also tied to wanting to go to medical school. And so um I had it narrowed down to the University of Alabama at Birmingham, uh the University of South Carolina, and the University of Florida. And I ended up picking UAB because I knew that with it being a mid- major, smaller program, I figured I would get more immediate playing time. And also I think the direct pathway to medical school was a little bit more clear. And also I had got accepted I'd applied and accepted to their science and technology honors program there which was a unique honors college rather than South Carolina and Florida. They just had generic programs which UAB also did but I really wanted to do um undergraduate research and be involved with that and I'm so thankful for that program at UAB. Yeah. I mean, that's like an incredible incredible place to go to school. So, tell us about your experience playing. Uh, once you get there and you're playing, tell us about how that goes.

Yeah. Um, when I got there, it was there was a coaching change that happened in the middle before I even got there, which was a little bit scary because I me and the other nine freshman hadn't signed our letters yet. And so, when there's like a coaching transition, there's always the worry that like new coach can just drop everybody. Nothing's been signed. But they kept me on. They kept us on. And I got there and it wasn't exactly what I thought it would be. The program, you know, I got to play. However, our record was like two and 17. And I thought about transferring and going to a different program where, you know, maybe the culture was a little bit different, but ultimately I was really happy with what I was getting academically and felt that like I, you know, you choose a school to get an education, not sports. Um but rather than transferring, I was being heavily recruited for um running and track and field and cross country, but my entire thing through high school was like, you know, I'm not really entertaining um scouts for that because that's not what I wanted to do. And so I turned down, you know, plenty of offers for that. And so I'm like, well, just switched over to crossing track and field at UAB because they wanted me to try at least with running um in spring and in winter with indoor because out of season for soccer at that time and so they're like, you know, it won't be a full-time commitment um one way. So I ended up just switching entirely.

Um, and that was a little bit troubled because the coach that was there at the time, uh, I was really overtrained and so were a lot of the girls on the team. And it was extremely stressful, not only physically on my body, but mentally it was frightening. I can only imagine like, you know, you have a good coach, you have a bad coach. Yeah. Make this uh, can make a huge difference. It It was a very bad coach. I mean, well, when you see a record of two and 17, there are a couple of things that are happening, right? Yep. That leadership it's leading to other stuff with the players doing all sorts of maybe the culture just wasn't very strong but you stuck in no matter what you stuck with it. And then you know what happens next? Mhm. Yeah. So I mean with switching to to running um overall there was so much talent on the team. I had so many uh teammates from Great Britain and Wales um and they were absolutely stellar role models to look up to. But like I had a okay indoor season and then when it came to outdoor like I was in so much pain and they like would not send me to get the medical care that I needed. I'm like I really think something is wrong with my leg. Um I could not even walk without having pain and like our athletic trainers were like trying to advocate for me like she needs to like go get imaging done. And when they finally sent me I had like a really terrible stress fracture. It was like a stress reaction and then like it was lighting up on the MRI like I almost essentially broke a piece of my tibia completely off at that point. It was so severe. So wa Yeah. Yeah. So like that ended my uh first season of outdoor track and like my freshman year. It was like really disappointing.

Um, and ultimately like it it wouldn't get better from there until uh gosh I try to remember the timeline just because with all like you know if you have like a traumatizing coach situation and just like an overall bad experience it just muddies the waters for everything. But I want to say it was my true senior year. Um so this would have been um cross country of my true senior year. Other coach was let go. wasn't necessarily fired, but let go. And then a new coach got brought on. And at that point, I'm just like, man, like I I had suffered two other stress fractures at that point, one in the other leg and then the following year in my junior year, both at the same time. So, it was like I was never healthy to run. Um, and then senior year, new coach, and I'm just like, you know what? Like, I'm going through the motions at this point. Like, I don't I will never be good. like I'm just trying to hold on for dear life because scholarship is paying for my education. Um you know what's what's the worst can happen if my body breaks again? It's done this multiple times. Um but you know got to know the new coach a little bit better. But then also in October of that year, which would have been October of 2015, uh my mom got a cancer diagnosis and that was like really kind of set in and I was just like numb to so many different things at that time. But that just kind of like it shook something in me deeper and I just like you know what I going to try to really reflect and look at my mileage now that I'm running and really run with intent at practice and run without fear because again like if my body breaks it breaks again and so I don't have you know coach at that time the new coach like really worked well with him. I truly think that he believed in me and you know what like that cross country season I finished on a good note.

I'm like I didn't place like by any like good measure within the conference but I'm could tell like in my bones I'm like indoor season is going to be good for me this year. Indoor track this coming winter is going to be something for me. And I get there and I'm like okay like I I I cracked under five in the mile. Like, yeah. Like, I'm like, never thought I could do that. Like, well, I I always knew that I could do that, but like, but the circumstances did. Yeah. I mean, like all of a sudden, and then you do it. Mhm. That's That's pretty crazy. Yeah. So, like I I finally went under five in the mile and like I was showing up bigger for my team. Um, and I, you know, had great placement indoor that year. I think I did not podium individually that year, but I our 4 by or our distance medley relay team, which I was the 1,200 meter leg on that. Um, we were either third or second that year. So, I mean, you know, solid. And then came to indoor or outdoor season that year. And this coach that was, you know, his first year with us, he's like, you are going to try the steeple chase. like I know like that's going to be a good event for you and you know your background in soccer having the agility as well as you know doing the endurance of this like let's try it and I'm like let's do it.

And you felt like your your stress fracture was healed enough at that point? I mean it was pretty not a stress fracture at that point. That's a real that's a serious fracture. So you felt at that point in time that you were strong enough that you could actually run steeple chase and do all the jumping and all that stuff? Yeah. No, I had no lingering. I mean, there was definitely like a little bit of apprehension, but after having gone through a cross country season and a solid indoor season, I was like, "This isn't going to happen again." Like, and also with just with like the stress and how cortisol can affect healing and and bone healing, which I did my master's capstone paper on that. So, yeah. Yeah, you told me about that because we were just talking about Dr. Suzanne Farie and the whole autonomic uh nervous system dysregulation. and how that just blows cortisol out. I mean, it's like when you're in that cortisol state, like what you dealt with, uh when you're in prolonged periods of that, it is really it's it messes with your sleep. It messes with your uh you know, metabolism, um all sorts of things. It's it's a really tough situation to be in. I know that my for myself, I've dealt with those issues. Um and it's it's a hard that's hard. It's really hard.

Yeah. and like dealing with years of that stress like you know constantly feeling like everything that I was doing was like being monitored and no matter what I did it wasn't going to be good enough for that coach and so well and also when you think about it your scholarship is riding on your... that was always threatened. I mean that's I mean you know it's sort of like what they talk about like with scientists right Klein came in and Dr. Klein came in and said, you know, science does well when we know that we've got the we've got the runway to actually complete this. You know, not everything always works out. So, we need to know that we've got the runway to actually make that happen. So, it must have felt the same way for you. Exactly. Yeah. So, so you know, not having that constant stress, I knew like my body was going to hold up under whatever. Um, and so I, you know, first time coming out to the bay was my second time doing the steeple chase, but my first time doing the 3K steeple chase. And I did it at the San Francisco State Distance Carnival. And it was a great showing, which was it was super scary because Go Gators.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I remember like that in my first uh 3K version of it cuz sometimes they'll do a 2K and I had done a 2K a couple weeks earlier at Vanderbilt and uh there was a girl that fell like a couple of laps in and so like there's always the risk of getting injured in that because for those unfamiliar with the event, you know, it's like a hurdle but they don't fall over when you hit them. It is a thick barrier that spans at least three lanes. You're you're going down with it. And so like I remember to the right of me a girl from uh Houston like hit it and then a bunch of girls went with her. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that could have been me." Yeah. But keep going. So I had a really good time uh at that uh event. And then uh one of my uh college teammates um Lucy ran the 10K at Stanford later that night, which I mean that was like a huge time adjustment for her because that all of the distance events are late at night and we were on a two-hour time difference. So, it felt like 11:00 or midnight for her.

Yeah. You know, it's so funny going to the Sanford Invitational for my son uh year after year. Uh he was a sprinter. Um and so he, you know, going down there for that and then you see these these athletes that are coming from all over the country and you're like, "Wow." you know, you start to really realize um you know, we have a member of our team's ex NFL person also, you know, talking about, you know, I mean, it's it's just really hard to move around the country and do that and try to actually perform at a peak elite at an elite level. I mean, that's that's really tough. Yeah. Talk about that. Will you I mean, like, how do you how do you manage that really from your perspective when you're in those situations? You're trying to keep yourself up. It's a mental game. It's a physical game. Nutrition, hydration, all of those things. How do you how do you make sure that you stay peak? I mean, I I really think it not building it up to be something that that it is bigger than what it truly is. You know, like you have to treat it like just another day at the office and you have to trust that all of the things that you've done up to that point, you've done it.

So, I mean, another part of like, you know, me finally starting to literally hit my stride with running, with having a coach that believed in me, I was really starting to buy into myself more with keeping like very like specific log like I have notebooks of like everything that I did with my running, my mileage, how I felt, what the weather was like, and then also everything that I was eating like and and then hydration. Like all of these things I was documenting like I hadn't before. But again, it all came down to like, you know, not having that stress, having that open runway that I know that I have everything that I need to make it happen and not that stress. And so, when you're going to a much bigger event on a bigger stage, you really can't treat it like it is a larger than-l life event, you have to treat it like I belong here. I have put in the work. I belong here. Well, yeah. I mean, and that's the fact, right? You do belong there. You have put in the work. And so I love that I that notion of really mental discipline and staying in the game. The mindset is is solid and it's like, hey, I'm going to show up and and the other stuff is sort of inconsequential. It's it's interesting how you could actually get that perspective and make that happen.

Yeah. And I mean, as as somebody who, you know, considers themsel to be a higher performer, not only like athletically, but also academically, you know, people like that are a lot more susceptible to like, you know, oh, like do I belong here? Like imposttor syndrome. for sure. And I have to check myself on it all the time, even to this day. But it's like I would not have made it this far without being qualified truly. So you you you've really got to just trust that you belong where you are. You would not have made it otherwise. Yeah. So how'd you do in the event? Yeah. So the big like culmination of like my true senior year um it was uh had a couple of more meets and then like big thing we were preparing for was our conference meet and there was one girl who was like clearly going to win the event. I think her her PR was like 20 seconds better than mine which in the steeple chase that's you know considerable. Um, but then second and third there was me and a girl from Charlotte who were like very very close in time. I think her PR for that season was a few seconds better than mine, which you know that's very doable.

Um, and so me and my coach were talking about how, you know, a goal for conference was just shoot for second, like you know, first place, it's pie in the sky. And so and also um it happened to be at the number one girls um they were hosting conference that year at Middle Tennessee State University. Um so get there and I am like well prepared. I go through my whole you know routine everything that I normally do prior to a race. It is cold. I remember it was so cold. It was at like the last event and so it was kind of cool to have everybody like watching you know my event at the end of the day and everybody likes to watch steeple because somebody might fall. You never know. I'm like, "Oh, I want to watch people splash in the water." And so, um, and I'm like, my mom like she uh was able to come to the meet and I'm like, "Hey, you know, like I'm going to do my best, but you know, probably not going to win, but you know, would love for you to come." And my mom has always been my biggest supporter. And, um, by this time, like, she was uh, in remission, like she was completely cleared from her breast cancer. She had her lumpctomy and everything. Borders and margins looked good. So she was doing better at that time as well.

Yeah. Um but like actually running the race, gun goes off and first place girl, you know, like for seed girl like she is out in front. She has a 100meter lead on us like halfway through the race and it's just me and the Charlotte girl like hanging like next to each other the whole time and we're kind of like trading off on who leads each lap. and my coaches like I can he's on the infield and he's like you know telling me good job stay dialed in and I want to say it was like around lap five cuz steeple chase is seven laps and then change with uh the starting on the back curve on the 200 and I want to say lap five like coach and my teammates on the infield they're like yo like number one's slowing down and it's kind of like hard for me to like you just are in this flow state with running where I'm not really paying too much attention to anything that's going on around me. I have no idea what's going on in the grand stands. But I do kind of look ahead and I'm like, "Oh yeah, we've made some ground on her and I have a kick. I've my speed has always been my threat even in distance running that I will always have something in the tank." And I start to lay it down like laps like 5 and 1/2 to six and the Charlotte girl is hanging with me. So I'm like I don't care. I don't care what she's doing at that point. Like this is me and I'm going and I am rounding the turn on the final lap. The final water barrier is like 150 from the final. And like I am able to catch the middle Tennessee girl at that point and I'm like my god I'm in first. like put it on, lay down the hammer, and I I finish first and I'm like completely in like shock and disbelief.

That was it was not supposed to happen that way. And immediately I run to my teammates on the infield like it at that point like not only me having like dealt with the prior coaching situation, there was only five of us like healthy on that team at that point. We only had five people. And so I ran to the five girls who had been with me for the last three years who had suffered with me and stayed and like I just embraced all it was just it's that's everything to me. And now I have your mom there too. Yes. And she recorded it so it's like oh my gosh like I can like watch and relive that. Like I don't have many of my races like recorded like that. And so that that was just like one of my top memories because all of those people were there to like share that moment with me. I mean that's just such a huge victory going into it and then you know hey just shoot for second but then all of a sudden it it's interesting how that might take the pressure off. You know what I mean? If you're like oh I've got to beat I've got to beat her. I got to beat her. I got to beat her. Yeah. And but if you say, you know, hey, I'm cool with we're just going to shoot for second and then all of a sudden, you know, on any given day, it just goes to show that you're as much of an athlete uh as you want to be, right? Yeah. Pretty cool.

No, so it was such a special moment. And at that point, like, you know, that time wasn't my PR, but my time um that I had gone into that race with. It was just good enough that had me on the bubble to qualify for Eastern Regionals. And unfortunately, I was like the first or second one out, so didn't get to qualify for regionals that year. Um, but it left me hungry for my final year because I had a year of red shirt. Um, and I was like super strong like my my final year of eligibility. Um, cross country, it was never really my thing. So, overall it was a decent cross country season. I think a lot of us ended up getting really sick prior to conference and so it wasn't like the best showing that coach had hoped for. And then indoor, I had obliterated all of my PRs indoor. I was our team's high point scorer and I was um podium for both uh the mile and the 3K. And then our DMR uh placed second that year. Um so uh that was super strong showing. And then I'm like, yes, outdoor like my time is shine again. Like I am I am now the front runner for Steeplechase.

Um, however, I came out and I was competing at Stanford that year because I had the qualifications to do that. I had the times to do it. And unfortunately, I had a really bad fall that year. I I hit a barrier. I got my trail leg clipped over a barrier and just like hit both of my knees into the track like right in front of me and like was able to finish it, but like I thought I blew my knee out. Like some of those wipeouts, you are just so they're so hardcore. You see them and you just go oof. Yeah, you could that you can hear the crowd like ooh you feel it. I remember watching my son run. Um I think it was I think it was a 200. It might have been a 100, but he pulled a hamstring and I I was watching him in the finish and he was in the lead about to win. Boom. hamstring pops and he's just you I don't know if I could really could have hurt it, but I saw him just go like this. You immediately see them grab the leg. Just brutal. Just brutal. Yeah. Those hamstring on those explosive sprinting event. Yeah. Yeah. But you know that's funny like you know watching my wife run the New York City Marathon where you know she's training and training and training and uh it's back when we were living out there and you know that plate you go to the point where they're coming down on the east side you know like coming over the Verzo Bridge and they're running and doing whatever it is that they're getting to in Manhattan. Then you go flip back over to the other side of the park where they're going all the burrows. Yeah. It was just so cool and I think it's just such an accomplishment. Running was just, you know, if there wasn't a ball, I wasn't really that that interested in it. But I think it's a really interesting um a really interesting sport. Mhm. Yeah. So many so many sports know it as their punishment. So I never fault people for maybe not being as like drawn to it as a ball sport. Yeah. having to run laps um after practices were never fun, but uh you know, it is what it is. Um so, what happens next?

Yeah. So, I mean, I I end up finishing with a fizzle and not a bang because I did end up hurting my hip really badly as a result of that fall, which we didn't get imaging done until the end of the season per my request because I'm like, this is it. Like, I physically can run and this is my last year of eligibility. I just want to try and then at the end of it all, we'll see, you know, if there's anything wrong. And I did end up having a torn labum in my hip for that. Thankfully, didn't need to like operate to fix it, but it did take a long time of like no running, no activity for it to finally feel good. And then following that, you know, I was like, okay, well, you know, start preparing to go to medical school, start, you know, getting everything together for my application. And then um I was doing some road races uh while I was still in Birmingham. And then uh got in touch with a a group out in Flagstaff, Arizona, a high performance team. And I'm like, you know what, like postcolgic athletic career has a shelf life where school will always be there. And so I moved out to Flag Staff to go train with the high performance team with for the next uh next several years. Um, so that was not really a big risk, but it kind of was. I mean, I moved out there not knowing anybody and I'm like, you know, like I never really feel like I got to see running all the way through and I know I have so much more to give. I mean, I only had, you know, one and a half good college years and I'm like, well, if I was able to accomplish that in that much time, you know, with healthy body and like refined training, like what can I do?

Um but then unfortunately like the peak of all of that was in the pandemic and so so yeah like being out in Flagstaff and having the privilege to train at like high altitude it was just next world because when you would come down and compete at sea level like like I'm super human. Yeah. I mean that's it's like uh it's such a huge advantage, right? I mean if you're training at sea level all the time you got to go up into altitude. That's like you gota take days to acclimate. Mhm. Oh, what was I just heard the uh strategy somebody was using uh they're using a sauna strategy. Oh, like a like a ch um not an oxygen chamber. It's it's hypoxic training. Yeah. And they're using a sauna as part of it. Yeah. Um but it's like it's pretty intense. I mean, you know, you just think about I mean, I I just remember all the years of going up and skiing, you know, um and just being at sea level and then, you know, you're it's amazing how dehydrated you get. Like, you know, I'm always drinking the IEL water. Um because it's like, you know, once you start feeling that hydration in your cells, it's amazing how dehydrated people are. It's if you feel like you need water, it's too late. You're way past it. So, no, trying staying on top of hydration whether you're an endurance athlete or not is is just like so important.

Yeah. I think every morning in the gym we're getting in like um at le I I I think the last count was like 80 to 100 ounces of water, you know, before we're ever hitting the sauna. Then we're putting more water back in cuz you're like what I think you told me it was like 32 ounces to 64 ounces of water that you can lose in a sauna depending on how long you're in there and how hot it is. I It's crazy because you don't even think about it. You're not swe You know what I mean? It's like evaporating that fast. Yeah. No, it's it's rapid. And when people were like, "Oh, yeah. I'm in there all the time." I'm like, "Uh, maybe." Yeah. Maybe not so long. Yeah. Well, I definitely changed my uh I definitely changed my time after you uh you did that, right? You like, "Hey, um you're cooking yourself." Yeah. So, like, okay. But no, overall like recovery after a run, like I love I love sauna afterwards. It's great. Um it's just like a nice like cherry on top of everything. It feels like a reward almost maybe. Good stuff. Mhm. Yeah, definitely have liked. He was the scheme room guy for the longest time and just liked that. And then all of a sudden, you know, uh Zach, his wife um said, "No, you know what? Here's the medical evidence on Steam Room. It's just not as good as um as sauna." And so, you know, I just started switching over and now it's like I never even want to go in the steam room. Yeah. It's really weird. Mhm. It's like you've got the better thing. Why go back to the other thing? Yeah. I mean, I guess it's 5 minutes in the steam room is good, but you know, at the same time, it's just not as hot and it doesn't doesn't quite work as well. Yeah. So, all right. So, you do the high performance thing and then what's the next step?

Yeah. So, I mean, while I'm doing all of that, I'm like, okay, well, if I'm not going to do medical school, like what now? Because I mean, I got my bachelor's and I got my masters while I was at UAB. bachelor's in biology and then masters in biotechnology which was like the benched commercialization of um drug and med device which was super cool but I'm like there's not really any medical technology here out in Flagstaff like every everybody in Phoenix has their summer home here like you know they go to escape the tripledigit temperatures um it's still pretty hot in Flagstaff in the summer isn't it? Yeah, it I mean and and there like almost nowhere there has AC because it's like moderately temperature. So, um yeah, it can get like 80 or 90° there in the summertime. But beautiful up there. Gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, I've been there in the summer. It's really nice. Yeah. No, it's and it's beautiful hiking, biking, running, and because you have that altitude benefit that it does draw a lot of high performance runners. And I mean there will be running teams from other parts of the world to come train there because it's such a unique training climate. Like we have like Mammoth and Big Bear and Flagstaff here and then like you know Kenya like there's very few countries that offer this type of training. Yeah.

Um but yeah, so I'm like what do I do if I'm not going to do medical school? like and so I reflected on my career as an athlete and I talked to my mom about it cuz she is my confidant for everything and I'm like you know she's like well like USC has a hybrid program you know like it's for physical therapy and like reflecting on my injuries I'm like it was really like you know the PTs and the ATS who were there for me through all of the injury like that I was there for I was in the training room every single day rehabbing injury but then when I is healthy. I was also in there doing prehab like doing like cold tub and like contrast with the hot and I like everything like so was very much in there but because I wanted to prevent stuff and so like well maybe I should look at physical therapy and so I applied to USC's hybrid program and I got accepted that was the only program I applied to and I I got accepted and I'm like okay like it's meant to be and it ended up working out nicely because again it was the pandemic and USC was the first to have a hybrid program and so they had a couple of classes before me. So I'm like I know this has been executed and done well and USC is one of the top PT programs in the country and people are passing the board's exam and so I was balancing you know like 80 80 mile weeks with a full course load three years of PT school. It's a lot of work. Mhm.

Yeah. So, you become a doctor of physical therapy, right? I mean, I can't imagine that. I can't imagine that's that program was easy. I mean, there had to have been moments where you thought to yourself or did you were there moments when you thought to yourself, I don't know. Yeah. There I mean, I am extremely privileged to have been a part of that program. There are so many brilliant faculty who are at the forefront of exercise medicine and and rehabilitation and I love all of them and I'm like always looking into what you know emerging research they are doing. Um, but yeah, I was like having my doubts like in throughout the program because I'm like, you know, it seems like through some of my clinical rotations like the work life balance isn't exactly what was kind of told to me or or in the research that I did prior to going to school and also like the debt to income ratio for the profession. It just it doesn't seem to be catching up. if you have a cashbased or like you know private practice that seems to be a really good model and a model that I believe in because it's like you know here a flat rate and you get the therapist for an hour they can do whatever they think is indicated for that patient but I mean you know you want to be accessible as a clinician but also you want to get paid because you have crazy debt you have crazy student loans after the end of it and so I was just kind of getting a little bit freaked out because my goal through PT school I'm like Okay, you know, I did a rotation with baseball at spring training, which was a huge privilege in and of itself. I'm like, I'm really liking this. Like, I'm going to apply to USC sports residency and then I want to do their upper extremity fellowship to specialize in the overhead athlete.

And so, I uh in the middle of PT school, actually, like right on coming up on my final year, I had a really bad accident on a clinical rotation where I passed out. They have no idea why I did. It was just an like they were just chalking it up to a sinkable episode. Um, but I broke my leg very badly. I had a massive spiral fracture of my tibia and fibula. Same one as before. Completely unrelated, but both I had had stress fractures in both of my legs twice each ande. Yeah. But the break where the spiral fracture happened, nowhere near where the stress fractures were. The stress fractures were like tibial plateau more proximal. The spiral was distal like almost midshaft and also fib. Brutal. Yeah. So that was in May. You still have hardware in there? I do. Yeah. Yeah. So I had surgery like I had my fall and I had surgery the following day and this rotation actually happened to be at UAB. Um, I was on a rotation at Children's of Alabama on a pediatric outpatient uh rotation and they literally like, "Put me in an ambulance." I'm like, "Don't put me in an ambulance. Like, like I'm fine." And they're like, "You're not fine." Like, my leg my foot was on 90 degrees the way.

Yeah, I've seen that. That happened to my wife skiing. She got hit by a runaway skier and like the whole thing is like it was so hardcore. I had to have an I am nail put in and my younger sister actually was in medical school at the time. She's two years younger and she was uh in medical school at UAB on her fourth year and had already matched an orthopedic surgery and like that's what it's crazy that that's the path that she picked because that's the path that I initially thought that I wanted but uh she ended up executing that perfectly. She is brilliant and having my fall there and having doctors that happen to be her faculty like that she knew I'm like this is the best case of an awful scenario. Yeah. Can't be any better. Mhm. So had the IM nail placed and then school is like you can't continue with you know doing clinical rotations now like you're literally physically not well enough to. I was completely nonweightbearing. I was in excruciating amount of pain following it. It looked like postoperatively it looked like a car had run over my leg. It was just black into blue. Yeah. Yeah. From above the knee all the way down to my foot and ankle. Oh god. The whole thing.

Yeah. So, um I'm like well I don't want to slow down like you know and USC has a 40week clinical rotation requirement which is more than what um the standard uh of physical therapy requires for a school. I think it's like 30 weeks, but USC, I think, had us at 40, which got to be better, right? Um, I'm like, well, I can still go to class and everything. So, I went through my summer course load and I'm like, I do not want to delay graduation. Like, I will not let this set me back. Um, and so ended up, you know, going through classes and being fine and cleared to like walk and do weightbearing by the time that fall rotation had come up. Um, but when it came down to trying to like get back into exercise and running, it was still so painful. And so like I I couldn't even like do a resisted hamstring curl like an isometric without just having a terrible like clawing sensation on where like the proximal screws were for uh keeping the nail in. And so that December was able to have some of the hardware removed, those two screws and then uh one more distally. You can't have all of them removed. Otherwise, the whole nail would have to come out cuz if they took all the screws out, it would just nothing to anchor it floating in there. Um, so yikes. That's pretty hardcore.

Yeah. So, had all of the unnecessary hardware removed in December and not as much recovery time, no delay on um, you know, anything that I had obligated for school. And it was just so busy through the springtime cuz at that point I was at spring training for baseball doing my final clinical rotation and then had graduation in June. And then I had to is it was May not June. And then um I had to finish off just a shorter abbreviated clinical rotation to make up for the time that I had missed due to the initial fall. Graduated on time, walked on time. However, that whole ordeal did delay my application for um applying for residency. So, that did set me back a year from that. Otherwise, I would have applied directly, but worked for that whole year in outpatient therapy and I did a little bit of um travel PT to be close to my sister who was uh at that point in residency. Just started residency in Toledo, Ohio. Um and I'm like coming up on things. I'm like, I'm really not like an outpatient, but like, you know, maybe when I get to residency. I will like it better. I'm applying, but I'm like, what if I don't like it? Like, what if what if I really am feeling like, you know, my feet to the fire here and this, you know, isn't really for me? What then? And so I'm like, well, maybe I should look into, you know, sales like with um surgery, like still being involved in patient outcomes in some way. And so I was reaching out um to connections to see how I could make that happen. And at the same time where I get a job to, you know, start my career in sales, I also like had offered a spot with USC sports residency. So I'm like got my dream residency and I got a job that brought me out to California, which I'm like never thought that I would get everything that I wanted like but I'm like I manifested.

I'm like, you know what? So, I ended up uh declining the residency offer, which broke my heart because I'm like, this is everything that I had worked for to this point. But my gut instinct was like, you know, I don't feel like I am able to take care of myself and all of the things that I want to be outside of just, you know, a clinician. Like, I have my personal goals and I would still like to follow some athletic pursuits and try again with running. Um, but I don't know if I can do that being a full-time clinician. And also I feel like maybe I can have more like impact if I am in another role that can still help with clinicians and their healthcare process. Yeah. And so I ended up taking a sales job, worked uh in the O with surgeons for a little bit, and then I'm like, you know, I still don't feel like I'm having enough of an impact here. I love being in the O. I love explaining, you know, everything that I know about anatomy and physiology and how I can help surgeons with their process, but the driving and just constantly having to be in place in person was still a lot. And I'm like, I feel like there's a better way again for me to reach more. And so ended up finding you and I'm like healthcare tech I, you know, learning about everything that it is that you do and everything that's happening at Quantum. Got a demo of the platform and I'm like, this I is something that I would have liked to have had as a clinician myself. like being a therapist, getting patients referred for specific treatment and explaining the same thing over and over again. And I'm like, I feel like a broken record, but everybody deserves the same care. So, I need to do my due diligence to make sure I'm giving them that thorough explanation.

Yeah. I think I mean, I'm I'm not a clinician, right? But I've been around healthcare my entire career. And I think the reality is it's just like, you know, if you're around it long enough, you see, and it's this redundant communication, having to say the same thing over and over and over and over again. And then, you know, my career intersects with this electronic health records, you know, where healthc care really changes, managed care comes in, you know, so we're in the 90s now, and it's like this totally different sort of like you're used to having this face-toface kind of communication with the clinician. and even your pharmacist. Um, and it's and it's just is totally changing. And then of course, you know, developers are making technology that's really not geared toward it's the way they think developers think, right? This the way that they they they think it should work this way, but it doesn't really work with a clinical workflow. Big challenges there. Um so when we developed that that platform um we really wanted to do it in with you know the clinician in mind and solving for how do you how do you create a better patient interaction a better patient relationship and that's when we created that you know that category patient relationship management is the ability to educate prior to and then for you as a clinician to be able to sit down and really say hey this is your situation make that eye contact really connect in a That's so so powerful. I just feel like I'm so pleased with where we've come as a team and um and what's going on with that. It's like, you know, I think with your clinical background and all of that, I just knew when we first brought you onto the team, I was like, "Oh yeah, this is going to be a great and you're doing so well." You know what I mean? It's it's so cool to see you just actually get in there and really crush it. and you know, he's so disciplined and I mean, I think those are all the things that you have to do in order to make things really work. You know, you got a huge future ahead of you. It's pretty exciting. Um, where is your sister now?

My sister is still in Toledo, Ohio. I mean, she's she's still there. Being being an orthopedic surgeon is no it's one of the most competitive specialties to get into. And I mean, as a as a woman, like she is absolutely like in a small minority, but she's still in Toledo and she is coming up on her fifth year. She has just finished her um process of applying to fellowships and interviewing with all the fellowship programs that she had interviews with. What's what's the area that she wants to focus in? She wants to do hand and upper extremity. Oh yeah. I'll tell you what. So my second second wrist surgery um first I'm not going to mention the doctor's name because I was like not happy with him at all. But James Chang, Dr. Chang uh down at uh Stanford to my second surgery where they shaved down some bones, cut out some nerves. Um cuz I was in just massive pain. I mean doubled over like you know there's no there's no cartilage in here. And I mean you're right-handed too. That's your dominant hand. So it's like brutal. And he said I I can take you from an 11 to a four, right? Because the pain was at times like just doubled over so bad. Um and that is such a really interesting, you know, orthopedic. Well, he's a plastic surgeon. Uh but you know, I think they're all kind of related in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. Um that's just an incredible specialty. Mhm. Yeah. No, she's she's absolutely brilliant, but she's like, I'm ready to be done with residency. She's got one more year and then she's got a year of fellowship and then after that she is out in the wild.

You know, it's interesting. I think that's going to happen is we're seeing all this stuff happen with longevity medicine, how that's going to permeate into uh orthopedics so quickly. I mean, you think about it, uh the guy that I mentioned before, Dr. William Seeds, was an orthopedic surgeon. Another another person that was an orthopedic surgeon uh who runs um uh a clinic in Boulder, Colorado, is uh Elizabeth Yirth. Um she's an amazing doctor. If you get a chance to listen to her, it's just like incredible. her, you know, presentations are amazing and she's just like so smart and um yeah, it's really really cool. Well, Hannah, it was great to have you in and uh is there anything you want to share with kids that are coming up, you know, about like sticking in and and staying the course and never giving up?

Yeah, I would say really lean into like if you can find mentorship from anyone, that's like huge. And like if if you just see somebody who is doing something that you like whether it's you know career athletic like ac like anything if you see that person like reach out like the worst they can say is no I'm not interested but I mean I've had students who have reached out to me to you know describe my career as an athlete and what it took to get into PT school and to navigate that. I I have never turned down a person who has sought that. So, I mean, I'm more than happy to be a resource for people, but nobody is self-made. And anybody who says that they are, I I would take that with a grain of salt because I by no means self-made, but it does take hard work to get there. It's It's going to take a lot of hard work, but I mean, you know, if it's what you really want, it is worth it. And the path may not be linear. Mine by no means is linear. And I'm still not done, but I do feel like where I am now is where I should be. I feel it in my bones that I've broken many times. But I I know that what I'm doing now, I can have a truly positive impact on clinicians and patients to make sure that we're delivering that care while, you know, making sure that it's still personalized, but giving everybody their time back because the demand on docs is is just everinccreasing.

Yeah. And I think also when we take a look at like you know staff inside of practices I mean I just I've felt so bad for staff members for so many years seeing them stuck in positions where it's really hard to break out of that. And I think that they're stuck in the same redundant communication uh you know cycle. And when we can produce technology that can alleviate some of that for them, not entirely but some of it uh and automate some of the things then we can reutilize them within the practice uh to do things to where we produce a better patient outcome a better patient experience and ultimately I think when we're navigating through the health care system you mentioned uh mentors it's also about you know advocates right having an advocate for you as as a patient so so important Uh cuz you think about, hey, I want to give him the ambulance, but you know, you may not be like it may not be in your right of mind, right? Yeah. I wasn't, but I'm like, I don't think my insurance is good. I'm a student. Yeah, that's crazy. But yeah, like advocacy for your patient. But like I mean talking about technology and like making it automated and efficient. Great. I think that's what every tech company's goal is. However, like I I don't feel like we're losing the human touch with it because like everything, you know, it is the doctor delivering the message with our messaging flow. And so, like it doesn't feel like you're just being handled by like some automated message like cool, we'll see you like this. It really feels like the doctor is delivering the message that they want you to hear and we're not losing a human touch.

It's just so much better for the patient. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really cool to have been a part of a team that figured out, you know, um the better mousetrap. Uh and to be the only one in the category that actually has produced that or done that. Um it feels great. Uh it was not without sacrifice. It was a ton of work. Uh and um you know, being an entrepreneur is not an easy not an easy road to go down. Um especially when you're decide that you're going to self-fund um you leave the venture world behind and you say okay we're going to be our own venture firm or we're we're own venture group. Um it's a it's a different it's a different set of challenges. Um it's just like I think you know dealing with people uh if you can do it the right way you can produce amazing results and it feels pretty good. All right. Hey last question. Uh we're pretty far into this but I got to tell you I felt a peak on those ketones. Did you feel them? I I feel energized. I do. I'm like, I could keep talking. I could keep I could yap all day. Yeah. Don't drink the other half of that bottle. I tell you what, especially if you had any caffeine during the day. Those things are amazing. I really I really want to thank uh Frank Yosa for um for that being the first one to step up and sponsor this. As you know, like all the proceeds from the show go to the uh to the charity that you chose. And so the views that come from this episode, which is evergreen content, so as it grows over time, we're going to be sending that off to that charity. Uh so having a sponsor that comes along and uh helps out with the production costs is always a help. It's nice to have that. So hey, welcome to the team. I'm so happy to be here, Jo.